10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
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18-01-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(18-01-2014 02:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  Aaaaaah, this is what I thought. You think it makes you feel better but in reality you are poisoning yourself. LET IT GO.
Don't criticize Mormons because it makes you feel "better". This is very wrong reason and leads to self-destruction.

Oh, look -- he's making shit up again. Whodathunkit?



Quote:Don't let it eat you. Did someone offend you? Did someone do something wrong to you?

Oh, brother, the old hackneyed canard comes out. Hobo

Quote:Or you feel that you just wasted your time by being Mormon and this is what makes you upset?

ANY time "being Moron" is time wasted.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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18-01-2014, 09:15 PM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(18-01-2014 07:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  You see, those who don't want to be part of the Church any more don't need you.They are going to leave Church any way without your help.

I don't owe you an explanation for what I do here.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  About taboos. Common, there are no taboos. But there are wise advices. We may choose to follow them.
I agree that there is a culture and you may be afraid to be criticized but there are no taboos.

Either English is not your first language, or you are not saying what you meant to say, or both. There is certainly a taboo against outside information within the church. I am done arguing that point, since I have already stated it more than once. I am not afraid to be criticized, the members are.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, this part of your post:" since I continually feel more content and happy as I go along"

Exactly. You said that you wished it was true, that leaving the church makes people feel more content and happy. You said that you wished for that to be true. Why do you wish that? I thought you liked being a Mormon.



(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  Of course not. I don't think I tried to do it.

Since you don't seem to recognize it when you do it, here are some examples of disrespect.

Quote:Oh, sweet joy of hate. I KNOW how it feels, BROTHER.

Here, you are telling me that you "know how it feels" as if you know my mind and heart exactly, and have experienced the same thing. You do not, and you have not. Your use of "brother" is direspectful and offensive. As I said, I have two real brothers and your use of the word disparages the closeness of my relationship with them. You are not as good as them, not even close, and I simply will not have you calling me brother. Stop, it's pretentious.

Quote:you know it is true.

Here, you presume to tell me what I know, which of course you have no actual idea of. This is putting words in my mouth, and presuming ideas in my head, which do not exist. It's dishonest.

Quote:It doesn't matter we don't know each other. We are children of the same Father.

It matters very much to me. As I have said, you will not call me by family titles again. Do you understand me?

If you try anything like those three examples again, I will no longer speak with you.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  My guess was that you had no testimony and didn't want to waste your time. It is not true?

It is not true. I felt that I wasted my time in Mormonism, yes, but I did, in fact, believe devoutly for many years. I had a testimony, if only in the sense that I trusted my parents and leaders that it was true. It was a borrowed testimony, but a testimony nonetheless. Even when I began to doubt the gospel, I did not immediately become and Atheist. I made gradual changes until my conscience and my actions were in line.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't. But sometimes our actions speak for us. We are judged by our actions. And we judge others by their actions.
(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  True. But I KNOW what you DO(here). Actions speak a thousand words.

This is an online, written, forum. All we have here is our words. Actions are irrelevant.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I criticize someone to make myself feel better I do not do service for myself. I destroy myself. And I have JOY in criticizing others. I have been there. I know how it feels. But this reminds me about this book "Joy of hate".

I do not criticize for the purpose of feeling better. Feeling good comes from doing what I believe to be morally right. Feeling good when telling people what I think about Mormonism, is only a nice side effect, not the point.

I do not take joy is criticizing others. What is enjoyable to me is discussing life's big issues, as well as other subjects that interest me. I enjoy the conversation, the things people say that make me think, and the community to be found here. That is what I mean when I say that I enjoy the criticism, both that I give, and that is given to me.

Honestly, you might as well accuse me of being a psychopath. Psychopaths enjoy causing suffering in others, which I most certainly do not.


(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  OK. Good point. What is your reason?

I answered this in a huge, verbose, statement at the top of this thread. I list 10 reasons that I rejected Mormonism. Feel free to read them, since apparently you didn't bother to before.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  And you said in one of your posts that you were agnostic. Didn't you?

No. I am an Atheist, and an Anti-Theist at that.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  I didn't say that. I only gave you list of reasons that I can think of.

Exactly my point. Your view on this is limited only to your own experience. You have not yet begun to fathom that someone would leave for legitimate reasons.

(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  No child has this opportunity because parents has the right to raise their children the way they think is the best for children.

This is untrue, as well as being immoral. Sam Harris is an example of someone raised without being required to believe anything at all about god or religion. He turned out to be just fine, a moral and good person. Parent's often abuse their responsibility to teach children by indoctrinating them to have the same opinions as they do. Opinions ought to be one's own, and therefore I find it immoral. My children can decide whatever they wish about anything. It is not my job to give them my ideas.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

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18-01-2014, 09:17 PM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
All I needed to hear was led by a swindler and magic scoota roos.
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18-01-2014, 10:14 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 03:10 AM by Alla.)
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I don't owe you an explanation for what I do here.
I didn't ask for it. I only said that they don't need your help if they already made up their mind.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Either English is not your first language, or you are not saying what you meant to say, or both.
My native languages are Ukrainian and Russian.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  There is certainly a taboo against outside information within the church. I am done arguing that point, since I have already stated it more than once.
It is not taboo, it is advice. I may choose to follow this advice or not to follow.
What will happen to me if I choose to get outside information? I didn't learn such a thing in Church so may be you(the outsider) can help me out.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I am not afraid to be criticized, the members are.
I could agree with that.
(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, this part of your post:" since I continually feel more content and happy as I go along"
Exactly. You said that you wished it was true, that leaving the church makes people feel more content and happy. You said that you wished for that to be true. Why do you wish that? I thought you liked being a Mormon.
I said:"I wish it was true" that you feel happier but not because you left the Church. I wish it was the true that you actually continually feel more content and happy as you go along. I believe that your desire to criticize Church and Mormonism is evidence that you have some bitterness which can not bring much happiness.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  Of course not. I don't think I tried to do it.
Since you don't seem to recognize it when you do it, here are some examples of disrespect.

Quote:Oh, sweet joy of hate. I KNOW how it feels, BROTHER.

Here, you are telling me that you "know how it feels" as if you know my mind and heart exactly,

Not at all. I don't know your mind and heart. But I know how joy of hate feels. That's all I said.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  and have experienced the same thing. You do not, and you have not. Your use of "brother" is direspectful and offensive.
Because you think that I meant to offend you. You are my brother because we are children of the same covenant. And because we have the same Father.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  As I said, I have two real brothers and your use of the word disparages the closeness of my relationship with them. You are not as good as them, not even close, and I simply will not have you calling me brother. Stop, it's pretentious.
Ok, I am not as good as them, not even close.
is it very easy to offend you?

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  It matters very much to me. As I have said, you will not call me by family titles again. Do you understand me?
yes, sir. Thumbsup

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  If you try anything like those three examples again, I will no longer speak with you.
yes, sir

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  It is not true. I felt that I wasted my time in Mormonism, yes, but I did, in fact, believe devoutly for many years. I had a testimony, if only in the sense that I trusted my parents and leaders that it was true. It was a borrowed testimony, but a testimony nonetheless.
"Book of Mormon is true because my mom knows this" is not a testimony I was talking about. Borrowed testimony is like borrowed light. If you don't have your own light what are you going to do when there is no one from whom you can borrow it?
(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Even when I began to doubt the gospel, I did not immediately become and Atheist. I made gradual changes until my conscience and my actions were in line.
I can totally understand this. If you never had your own testimony it is very hard to act/ live your life like you have it(own testimony).

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  This is an online, written, forum. All we have here is our words. Actions are irrelevant.
To criticize is action. To criticize because it makes you feel better is action.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I do not criticize for the purpose of feeling better. Feeling good comes from doing what I believe to be morally right. Feeling good when telling people what I think about Mormonism, is only a nice side effect, not the point.
If you put it this way then I say this: I can not judge your consciousness.


(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I do not take joy is criticizing others. What is enjoyable to me is discussing life's big issues, as well as other subjects that interest me. I enjoy the conversation, the things people say that make me think, and the community to be found here. That is what I mean when I say that I enjoy the criticism, both that I give, and that is given to me.
OK. I got it.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  No. I am an Atheist, and an Anti-Theist at that.
OK. I was an atheist.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  I didn't say that. I only gave you list of reasons that I can think of.

Exactly my point. Your view on this is limited only to your own experience. You have not yet begun to fathom that someone would leave for legitimate reasons.
I was right you didn't have your testimony. Borrowed testimony is not really testimony.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  No child has this opportunity because parents has the right to raise their children the way they think is the best for children.

This is untrue, as well as being immoral. Sam Harris is an example of someone raised without being required to believe anything at all about god or religion. He turned out to be just fine, a moral and good person. Parent's often abuse their responsibility to teach children by indoctrinating them to have the same opinions as they do. Opinions ought to be one's own, and therefore I find it immoral. My children can decide whatever they wish about anything. It is not my job to give them my ideas.
I didn't say that parents atheists are bad parents and that their children can turn out bad. My parents were atheists and I turned out to be Mormon.
But parents have an obligation to teach their children what they believe is the best
for them. Children have no choice while they are little. Parents atheists have the right not to let their children to take lessons from Mormon missionaries. But when children become independent they can choose what ever they want.
You know that moral agency is a gift from God and only Lucifer wants to take it from us, not God and not Church.


P.S. taboos are from Lucifer not from God and not from His Church.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(18-01-2014 10:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S. taboos are from Lucifer not from God and not from His Church.

That is easily one of the dumbest fucking things you have ever posted... Weeping

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19-01-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(18-01-2014 10:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  You know that moral agency is a gift from God and only Lucifer wants to take it from us, not God and not Church.

That is a bunch of horseshit.

You STILL haven't shown even a SHRED of evidence that this proposed god-thing exists AT ALL. You might as well be going on and on about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All you are doing is wallowing in your own delusions. Hobo

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-01-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
The more I read about Mormonism, the more amazed I am anyone finds this shit remotely believable.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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19-01-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(18-01-2014 10:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I don't owe you an explanation for what I do here.
I didn't ask for it. I only said that they don't need your help if they already made up their mind.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Either English is not your first language, or you are not saying what you meant to say, or both.
My native languages are Ukrainian and Russian.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  There is certainly a taboo against outside information within the church. I am done arguing that point, since I have already stated it more than once.
It is not taboo, it is advice. I may choose to follow this advice or not to follow.
What will happen to me if I choose to get outside information? I didn't learn such a thing in Church so may be you(the outsider) can help me out.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I am not afraid to be criticized, the members are.
I could agree with that.
(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Exactly. You said that you wished it was true, that leaving the church makes people feel more content and happy. You said that you wished for that to be true. Why do you wish that? I thought you liked being a Mormon.
I said:"I wish it was true" that you feel happier but not because you left the Church. I wish it was the true that you actually continually feel more content and happy as you go along. I believe that your desire to criticize Church and Mormonism is evidence that you have some bitterness which can not bring much happiness.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Since you don't seem to recognize it when you do it, here are some examples of disrespect.


Here, you are telling me that you "know how it feels" as if you know my mind and heart exactly,

Not at all. I don't know your mind and heart. But I know how joy of hate feels. That's all I said.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  and have experienced the same thing. You do not, and you have not. Your use of "brother" is direspectful and offensive.
Because you think that I meant to offend you. You are my brother because we are children of the same covenant. And because we have the same Father.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  As I said, I have two real brothers and your use of the word disparages the closeness of my relationship with them. You are not as good as them, not even close, and I simply will not have you calling me brother. Stop, it's pretentious.
Ok, I am not as good as them, not even close.
is it very easy to offend you?

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  It matters very much to me. As I have said, you will not call me by family titles again. Do you understand me?
yes, sir. Thumbsup

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  If you try anything like those three examples again, I will no longer speak with you.
yes, sir

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  It is not true. I felt that I wasted my time in Mormonism, yes, but I did, in fact, believe devoutly for many years. I had a testimony, if only in the sense that I trusted my parents and leaders that it was true. It was a borrowed testimony, but a testimony nonetheless.
"Book of Mormon is true because my mom knows this" is not a testimony I was talking about. Borrowed testimony is like borrowed light. If you don't have your own light what are you going to do when there is no one from whom you can borrow it?
(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Even when I began to doubt the gospel, I did not immediately become and Atheist. I made gradual changes until my conscience and my actions were in line.
I can totally understand this. If you never had your own testimony it is very hard to act/ live your life like you have it(own testimony).

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  This is an online, written, forum. All we have here is our words. Actions are irrelevant.
To criticize is action. To criticize because it makes you feel better is action.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I do not criticize for the purpose of feeling better. Feeling good comes from doing what I believe to be morally right. Feeling good when telling people what I think about Mormonism, is only a nice side effect, not the point.
If you put it this way then I say this: I can not judge your consciousness.


(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I do not take joy is criticizing others. What is enjoyable to me is discussing life's big issues, as well as other subjects that interest me. I enjoy the conversation, the things people say that make me think, and the community to be found here. That is what I mean when I say that I enjoy the criticism, both that I give, and that is given to me.
OK. I got it.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  No. I am an Atheist, and an Anti-Theist at that.
OK. I was an atheist.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Exactly my point. Your view on this is limited only to your own experience. You have not yet begun to fathom that someone would leave for legitimate reasons.
I was right you didn't have your testimony. Borrowed testimony is not really testimony.

(18-01-2014 09:15 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  This is untrue, as well as being immoral. Sam Harris is an example of someone raised without being required to believe anything at all about god or religion. He turned out to be just fine, a moral and good person. Parent's often abuse their responsibility to teach children by indoctrinating them to have the same opinions as they do. Opinions ought to be one's own, and therefore I find it immoral. My children can decide whatever they wish about anything. It is not my job to give them my ideas.
I didn't say that parents atheists are bad parents and that their children can turn out bad. My parents were atheists and I turned out to be Mormon.
But parents have an obligation to teach their children what they believe is the best
for them. Children have no choice while they are little. Parents atheists have the right not to let their children to take lessons from Mormon missionaries. But when children become independent they can choose what ever they want.
You know that moral agency is a gift from God and only Lucifer wants to take it from us, not God and not Church.


P.S. taboos are from Lucifer not from God and not from His Church.



Alla - could you maybe talk to us awhile and leave the preaching alone?

Or is the scripture-speak the only interest you have here?

This is why I brought up proselytizing awhile back. Maybe if you could just converse a little; possibly avoid the topics where it's only scripture, dogma and your devotion to your religious life(?) Because this IS really all you seem to talk about. And while you and I have made good strides which is good - I just feel compelled to suggest that you stop (for awhile) this constant preaching. Surely you must realize that this barrage of scripture-speak is abrasive to non-believers?

This is an atheist forum and if all you do is respond to religious threads and only continue to lather us with God-this and Jesus-that --- what do you think will happen? People don't want to be preached to all the time, Alla. Crap even Christians don't want to be preached at all the time. There's more to this forum than just religious arguments. There are actual Real and decent people here that you alienate day after day.

Imagine a parade is going past you with interesting people, ideals, subjects, topics, personal achievements or broken hearts, diet plans and recipes, politics and current events........the colors, the excitement, the music and noise; the laughter, jokes and camaraderie. The Serious folk, the clowns, the book discussions, the investigation of science........the movie suggestions, the rants, the good times and bad times............ a virtual parade of interest......
ok?

But you? You seem just on the sidewalk throwing rumpled up pages ripped from a bible at this huge event that's passing you by (??)
Shocking

It just doesn't seem very effective does it?



And - if you're ONLY here to make converts - then just be honest and say so.
Right now you just appear a person who's going to barf her religion wanted or unwanted on us day after day after day regardless of people react to you.

it's pretty harsh.


And honestly - I am trying to be helpful. You and I had disagreed and now we're past that. So please take this message in the way it is intended.
I mean this in kindness.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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19-01-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(19-01-2014 11:25 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The more I read about Mormonism, the more amazed I am anyone finds this shit remotely believable.

I invited them in when I was a wee teenage atheist (okay, that ain't strictly true, I've never been a wee anything). They gave me their book, I read it and they came back a week later. "Okay I think I got it. I give up caffeine, nicotine and alcohol and in return I get ephedra tea, weed and a bunch of wives. Is that about the gist of it?" "The weed thing's a little iffy. It's gotta be for medicinal not recreational purposes prescribed by a doctor in a State where it's legal and you gotta eat it not smoke it. And we don't do the polygamy thing anymore." ... Blink ... Blink ... "Get the fuck out. No seriously get the fuck out now."

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19-01-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: 10 Reasons Why I Rejected Mormonism, and So Should You
(19-01-2014 11:39 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 10:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  I didn't ask for it. I only said that they don't need your help if they already made up their mind.

My native languages are Ukrainian and Russian.

It is not taboo, it is advice. I may choose to follow this advice or not to follow.
What will happen to me if I choose to get outside information? I didn't learn such a thing in Church so may be you(the outsider) can help me out.

I could agree with that.
I said:"I wish it was true" that you feel happier but not because you left the Church. I wish it was the true that you actually continually feel more content and happy as you go along. I believe that your desire to criticize Church and Mormonism is evidence that you have some bitterness which can not bring much happiness.


Not at all. I don't know your mind and heart. But I know how joy of hate feels. That's all I said.

Because you think that I meant to offend you. You are my brother because we are children of the same covenant. And because we have the same Father.

Ok, I am not as good as them, not even close.
is it very easy to offend you?

yes, sir. Thumbsup

yes, sir

"Book of Mormon is true because my mom knows this" is not a testimony I was talking about. Borrowed testimony is like borrowed light. If you don't have your own light what are you going to do when there is no one from whom you can borrow it?
I can totally understand this. If you never had your own testimony it is very hard to act/ live your life like you have it(own testimony).

To criticize is action. To criticize because it makes you feel better is action.

If you put it this way then I say this: I can not judge your consciousness.


OK. I got it.

OK. I was an atheist.

I was right you didn't have your testimony. Borrowed testimony is not really testimony.

I didn't say that parents atheists are bad parents and that their children can turn out bad. My parents were atheists and I turned out to be Mormon.
But parents have an obligation to teach their children what they believe is the best
for them. Children have no choice while they are little. Parents atheists have the right not to let their children to take lessons from Mormon missionaries. But when children become independent they can choose what ever they want.
You know that moral agency is a gift from God and only Lucifer wants to take it from us, not God and not Church.


P.S. taboos are from Lucifer not from God and not from His Church.



Alla - could you maybe talk to us awhile and leave the preaching alone?

Or is the scripture-speak the only interest you have here?

This is why I brought up proselytizing awhile back. Maybe if you could just converse a little; possibly avoid the topics where it's only scripture, dogma and your devotion to your religious life(?) Because this IS really all you seem to talk about. And while you and I have made good strides which is good - I just feel compelled to suggest that you stop (for awhile) this constant preaching. Surely you must realize that this barrage of scripture-speak is abrasive to non-believers?

This is an atheist forum and if all you do is respond to religious threads and only continue to lather us with God-this and Jesus-that --- what do you think will happen? People don't want to be preached to all the time, Alla. Crap even Christians don't want to be preached at all the time. There's more to this forum than just religious arguments. There are actual Real and decent people here that you alienate day after day.

Imagine a parade is going past you with interesting people, ideals, subjects, topics, personal achievements or broken hearts, diet plans and recipes, politics and current events........the colors, the excitement, the music and noise; the laughter, jokes and camaraderie. The Serious folk, the clowns, the book discussions, the investigation of science........the movie suggestions, the rants, the good times and bad times............ a virtual parade of interest......
ok?

But you? You seem just on the sidewalk throwing rumpled up pages ripped from a bible at this huge event that's passing you by (??)
Shocking

It just doesn't seem very effective does it?



And - if you're ONLY here to make converts - then just be honest and say so.
Right now you just appear a person who's going to barf her religion wanted or unwanted on us day after day after day regardless of people react to you.

it's pretty harsh.


And honestly - I am trying to be helpful. You and I had disagreed and now we're past that. So please take this message in the way it is intended.
I mean this in kindness.
Good point and good advice. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't follow it.
Thank you, WitchSabrina.Smile

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