10% is a lot of dough.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-02-2013, 10:33 AM
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
(18-02-2013 10:12 AM)DLJ Wrote:  In the evolution of societies, church came before state.

Tithing is just the churches' version of taxation.

Nearly all societies (clubs, states, religions, charities etc.) gather subscriptions / fees / taxes / etc. in one way or another.

The obvious exception being internet communities.


For me, it comes down to governance (paraphrased as... fairness, accountability and transparency).

States' taxation has different forms in different countries but each system (if democratically derived) attempts at fairness.
Levels of accountability and transparency also vary per country but the trend is towards more not less of these.

I don't see much of either accountability and transparency in e.g. the catholic church. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If I could look at the books of these organisations and see money going to "feed the poor locally," vs. money spent on cronyism and evangelical swimming pools, I might be happy to give generously.

Just sayin'

Drinking Beverage

and btw, "missions overseas" would not be in the 'plus' column.
If the default is that peoples who have not been 'fortunate' enough to hear 'the word' are not sent to hell...

Don't fucking well tell 'em!
Depends a lot on the denomination, sub-denomination, or even church. My experience in UU congregations has been an incredibly open and accessible budgeting process with high accountability to members. Either that or it's an ingenious con in which they make it so you don't look at the details because they flood you with so much information that you become outright SICK of it and stop examining it. If so, I fell for it.

They don't require tithing, but most congregations will pass on their per-member dues from the national association (about 250$ per year, IIRC) to the membership. They are most definitely not above wheedling, though, and pointing to 10% as a suggested donation. Think less "pay 10% or you're going to hell" (UUs don't typically believe in hell), and more "public broadcasting pledge drive with half your friends as promoters". .... which can be kinda like hell, now that I think about it.

Not promoting UU-ism specifically, just sharing my experience and saying that there's a lot of diversity on the subject.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 02:52 AM
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
(16-02-2013 02:56 PM)Logisch Wrote:  A thought crossed my mind today... if the average person really pays 10% of their income... how much do they spend or give to a church?

Let's assume that someone only pays 10% ONCE a month (let's say once out of two paychecks). Let's assume it's a fairly standard take home of $1350 (I think that'd put you in the range of $650/bimonthly).

So if you give 10% once a month that's $65. Now, let's multiply that by twelve.
$780.

What can you do with $780? Well... for some that's a mortgage payment, insurance for half (or a year) a year or even groceries for several months. Food for a local cannery that feeds the homeless or whatever. Shit, i can think of a fuckton of things I can do with $780.

That's only if the person gives 10% of their check once a month, not every check, biweekly. If they're a "good giver" and they give all, that number doubles.

$1,560. Fuck.

Want to make that more fun? In ten years you've given one year of your wages away. Literally if you sat on your ass and did your job to give an entire year of wages away. Gone. $15,600. If the average person lives give or take let's say 30,000 days, and the average person starts paying 10% once they are old enough to have such a supportive job (Let's assume you're 20)... and you pay for the remaining years you are alive 10% every paycheck to your church, that's about 22,700 days remaining, or 62 years. Assuming you made the same wage and it never changed and you made only $1350 take home per month paying in 10% of your income over your life time you would be giving:

$96,720 (You could buy a house for your church, or a large chunk of your retirement, or a whole shit ton of local support for charities that actually do shit)

Think about that for a minute. Now...

Imagine how many people go to said church. Calculate that maybe even if 100 members are present, and only 10-15% of those give each sunday... how much money that is. Just think about it.

If you find 10% to be unreasonable, what do you think is reasonable?

The church I go to publishes the amount of tithes it gets each week in the bulletin and I doubt it is more than 1%.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-03-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
(16-03-2013 02:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(16-02-2013 02:56 PM)Logisch Wrote:  A thought crossed my mind today... if the average person really pays 10% of their income... how much do they spend or give to a church?



Let's assume that someone only pays 10% ONCE a month (let's say once out of two paychecks). Let's assume it's a fairly standard take home of $1350 (I think that'd put you in the range of $650/bimonthly).



So if you give 10% once a month that's $65. Now, let's multiply that by twelve.

$780.



What can you do with $780? Well... for some that's a mortgage payment, insurance for half (or a year) a year or even groceries for several months. Food for a local cannery that feeds the homeless or whatever. Shit, i can think of a fuckton of things I can do with $780.



That's only if the person gives 10% of their check once a month, not every check, biweekly. If they're a "good giver" and they give all, that number doubles.



$1,560. Fuck.



Want to make that more fun? In ten years you've given one year of your wages away. Literally if you sat on your ass and did your job to give an entire year of wages away. Gone. $15,600. If the average person lives give or take let's say 30,000 days, and the average person starts paying 10% once they are old enough to have such a supportive job (Let's assume you're 20)... and you pay for the remaining years you are alive 10% every paycheck to your church, that's about 22,700 days remaining, or 62 years. Assuming you made the same wage and it never changed and you made only $1350 take home per month paying in 10% of your income over your life time you would be giving:



$96,720 (You could buy a house for your church, or a large chunk of your retirement, or a whole shit ton of local support for charities that actually do shit)



Think about that for a minute. Now...



Imagine how many people go to said church. Calculate that maybe even if 100 members are present, and only 10-15% of those give each sunday... how much money that is. Just think about it.



If you find 10% to be unreasonable, what do you think is reasonable?



The church I go to publishes the amount of tithes it gets each week in the bulletin and I doubt it is more than 1%.

What do you mean IF we find it unreasonable? How about send the money directly to a charity if you insist on giving the money up in your god's name and letting your tax-exempt institution figure out coffee and doughnuts for themselves?

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. House
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-03-2013, 12:03 AM
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
My wife is Catholic. She gives about 1.2% to the church. (I know because I'm doing our taxes and I've seen the checks.) The total of all our charitable contributions is about 3%. Since these are tax deductible we get back about 1%, making our effective rate of giving about 2%.

Most of our charitable contributions go to United Way and other non-religious organizations. I do not begrudge any of this money. I get tired of hearing that atheists have no moral compass. I do not give this money as payment for a place in heaven or a cooler spot in hell.

Humans arrived on Earth on 22 October 4004 B.C. A few of us are still trying to repair the ship.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-03-2013, 04:55 AM
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
Yeah, 10% is a lot to pay to hear religious nonsense no matter how much you make.

Only 0% is acceptable,IMO.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-03-2013, 10:39 AM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2013 10:48 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
(16-03-2013 02:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you find 10% to be unreasonable, what do you think is reasonable?

The church I go to publishes the amount of tithes it gets each week in the bulletin and I doubt it is more than 1%.

I already addressed that -- given the assumption that God is all-powerful, meaning that he has the ability to produce as much money as He needs on a whim without causing you to get any poorer in the process -- then anything above nothing is unreasonable. The only scenario in which God requiring your money makes reasonable sense is one in which He doesn't have the ability to generate His own funds or, as Logisch mentioned, the ability to do His works without money. Of course I believe that the limiting factor to God's ability to do this is His non-existence, but any explanation without omnipotence will do fine.

If God exists, and He actually gives you things that you ask for through prayer, then wouldn't He pay your tithe if you asked Him to do it? If you believe in prayer, then I suggest you test its power by praying for an extra 10% to be provided every week so that you can tithe as your church asks, and still not have any less funds. The fact that your particular church body tithes such a small amount doesn't define the tithe as smaller than we claim... it's 10% by definition, and just because it's voluntary doesn't mean that God wants it any less than any other "voluntary" thing he asks of your free will Tongue

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2013, 02:47 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2013 02:52 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: 10% is a lot of dough.
(16-02-2013 08:59 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I used to tithe when I was a Christian... the whole 10%. It's a lot of money.

The way to rationalize such huge donations is by thinking that God "gave" you that money, therefore you "owe" Him. But seriously, we atheists also make money, so clearly it either isn't from God or God will give you money no matter what you do with it, so it's only a gift in the way that your exhaled breath is a gift of CO2 for nearby trees. The other way to rationalize it is to say to yourself that God will give you back everything that you give him with interest, but that's equally silly. If you have an income, of course you're going to make that money back in your next paycheck -- but does any Christian get regular windfalls greater than 10% of their paycheck? Of course not. Christians don't make any more money than non-Christians, and while there may be some financial gain to being a Christian (such as networking) there's clearly no supernatural financial gifts to Christians.

If God needed money, He could produce it Himself. In fact, God would be a lot more believable if churches paid for people to attend, with the money for it coming from God. Why doesn't that happen? Why would pastors need to draw wages from their attendants? And if believers actually believe that God can make these "magic windfall returns" happen, why don't they simply pray that God will get money equal to 10% of their income by that supernatural device instead?


The way I rationalize the giving tithes is I figure if I m going to attend church I should support it. So when the collection basket comes around...I toss in a Jackson.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: