10 tough questions for theists.
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13-01-2016, 01:38 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
Question Nr. 644 Rev 19:

Jan and Bob are married. Happy couple. But Bob one day realizes he loves Wendy, Jan's best friend, more than he loves Jan. Can't help what his heart feels. He doesn't start an affair, though, out of loyalty to Jan - and Wendy doesn't try to push an affair, even though she loves Bob. Bob's life is an emotional turmoil. Then he dies of a coronary - too many Ruth's Chris ribeyes and too much dust on his bicycle and not enough asparagus. Devoutly Christian, he goes to heaven.

Jan and Wendy are heartbroken, though Jan does not suspect the true reason for the depth of Wendy's grief. Years pass. Neither forgets their feelings for Bob; neither marries.

Meanwhile, in heaven, Bob finds, to his surprise, a most unheavenly aspect to his paradise: he's not able to enjoy it without either Jan or Wendy. Worse, he finds himself dreading Jan showing up ahead of Wendy. The disloyalty of his feelings troubles him, and that fact that he's troubled troubles him more. He wonders if hell would have been better - its distractions would make it difficult to be bothered by the feelings flaying his dead heart without a moment's peace in the most peaceful place in the universe.

Then Wendy dies. Choked to death on a communion cracker. In heaven, Bob feels deep joy for the first time since he died. But even as he and Wendy embrace, he holds back, still torn by loyalty to Jan. Stuff it, says Wendy. The vow was until death do you part, and you crossed that bridge. We're here, she's there, let's get heavenly.

And they do. More years pass.

And then Jan dies. And goes to heaven, filled with anticipation of reunion with Bob.

Three souls meet in heaven. It does not go well.

If heaven is, as advertised, a paradise, full emotional faculty is necessary for paradise to be experienced as paradise. But full emotional faculty produces inescapable emotional torment. Heaven can't be anything but hellish - except to the brain-dead.

So how does that work - a heaven free of trouble filled with souls capable of feelings? Or perhaps the dead really are all brain-dead.
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13-01-2016, 02:33 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 01:38 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  So how does that work - a heaven free of trouble filled with souls capable of feelings? Or perhaps the dead really are all brain-dead.

Well you're supposed to spend your time playing the harp, dressing up in white robes and singing about how great God is... I dunno about you but that doesn't sound like fun to me. Maybe up in heaven Jan, Bob and Wendy can just have a threesome and get over the whole one man one woman bullshit imposed by 'loving' God?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-01-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 01:38 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Question Nr. 644 Rev 19:

Jan and Bob are married. Happy couple. But Bob one day realizes he loves Wendy, Jan's best friend, more than he loves Jan. Can't help what his heart feels. He doesn't start an affair, though, out of loyalty to Jan - and Wendy doesn't try to push an affair, even though she loves Bob. Bob's life is an emotional turmoil. Then he dies of a coronary - too many Ruth's Chris ribeyes and too much dust on his bicycle and not enough asparagus. Devoutly Christian, he goes to heaven.

Jan and Wendy are heartbroken, though Jan does not suspect the true reason for the depth of Wendy's grief. Years pass. Neither forgets their feelings for Bob; neither marries.

Meanwhile, in heaven, Bob finds, to his surprise, a most unheavenly aspect to his paradise: he's not able to enjoy it without either Jan or Wendy. Worse, he finds himself dreading Jan showing up ahead of Wendy. The disloyalty of his feelings troubles him, and that fact that he's troubled troubles him more. He wonders if hell would have been better - its distractions would make it difficult to be bothered by the feelings flaying his dead heart without a moment's peace in the most peaceful place in the universe.

Then Wendy dies. Choked to death on a communion cracker. In heaven, Bob feels deep joy for the first time since he died. But even as he and Wendy embrace, he holds back, still torn by loyalty to Jan. Stuff it, says Wendy. The vow was until death do you part, and you crossed that bridge. We're here, she's there, let's get heavenly.

And they do. More years pass.

And then Jan dies. And goes to heaven, filled with anticipation of reunion with Bob.

Three souls meet in heaven. It does not go well.

If heaven is, as advertised, a paradise, full emotional faculty is necessary for paradise to be experienced as paradise. But full emotional faculty produces inescapable emotional torment. Heaven can't be anything but hellish - except to the brain-dead.

So how does that work - a heaven free of trouble filled with souls capable of feelings? Or perhaps the dead really are all brain-dead.

Easy, god reprograms your brain, you don't feel what you feel when you were on Earth, you feel what God wants you to feel. Paradise! for God, not you........Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-01-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 01:38 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  So how does that work - a heaven free of trouble filled with souls capable of feelings? Or perhaps the dead really are all brain-dead.

I agree with MD, you seem to forget that he will have no time to think about either of them because his time (if there is such a thing) is spent licking god's balls as Revelation states. You also are neglecting the option that he is not a True Christian™ and isn't in heaven and is instead in hell with his 72 hookers and beer volcanoes. Where he is also not likely to have time to think about either of them.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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13-01-2016, 08:51 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 01:38 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Question Nr. 644 Rev 19:

Jan and Bob are married. Happy couple. But Bob one day realizes he loves Wendy, Jan's best friend, more than he loves Jan. Can't help what his heart feels. He doesn't start an affair, though, out of loyalty to Jan - and Wendy doesn't try to push an affair, even though she loves Bob. Bob's life is an emotional turmoil. Then he dies of a coronary - too many Ruth's Chris ribeyes and too much dust on his bicycle and not enough asparagus. Devoutly Christian, he goes to heaven.

Jan and Wendy are heartbroken, though Jan does not suspect the true reason for the depth of Wendy's grief. Years pass. Neither forgets their feelings for Bob; neither marries.

Meanwhile, in heaven, Bob finds, to his surprise, a most unheavenly aspect to his paradise: he's not able to enjoy it without either Jan or Wendy. Worse, he finds himself dreading Jan showing up ahead of Wendy. The disloyalty of his feelings troubles him, and that fact that he's troubled troubles him more. He wonders if hell would have been better - its distractions would make it difficult to be bothered by the feelings flaying his dead heart without a moment's peace in the most peaceful place in the universe.

Then Wendy dies. Choked to death on a communion cracker. In heaven, Bob feels deep joy for the first time since he died. But even as he and Wendy embrace, he holds back, still torn by loyalty to Jan. Stuff it, says Wendy. The vow was until death do you part, and you crossed that bridge. We're here, she's there, let's get heavenly.

And they do. More years pass.

And then Jan dies. And goes to heaven, filled with anticipation of reunion with Bob.

Three souls meet in heaven. It does not go well.

If heaven is, as advertised, a paradise, full emotional faculty is necessary for paradise to be experienced as paradise. But full emotional faculty produces inescapable emotional torment. Heaven can't be anything but hellish - except to the brain-dead.

So how does that work - a heaven free of trouble filled with souls capable of feelings? Or perhaps the dead really are all brain-dead.

This cannot possibly be a question that Christians can seriously relate to. It just can't be.
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13-01-2016, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2016 10:00 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 08:51 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 01:38 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Question Nr. 644 Rev 19:

Jan and Bob are married. Happy couple. But Bob one day realizes he loves Wendy, Jan's best friend, more than he loves Jan. Can't help what his heart feels. He doesn't start an affair, though, out of loyalty to Jan - and Wendy doesn't try to push an affair, even though she loves Bob. Bob's life is an emotional turmoil. Then he dies of a coronary - too many Ruth's Chris ribeyes and too much dust on his bicycle and not enough asparagus. Devoutly Christian, he goes to heaven.

Jan and Wendy are heartbroken, though Jan does not suspect the true reason for the depth of Wendy's grief. Years pass. Neither forgets their feelings for Bob; neither marries.

Meanwhile, in heaven, Bob finds, to his surprise, a most unheavenly aspect to his paradise: he's not able to enjoy it without either Jan or Wendy. Worse, he finds himself dreading Jan showing up ahead of Wendy. The disloyalty of his feelings troubles him, and that fact that he's troubled troubles him more. He wonders if hell would have been better - its distractions would make it difficult to be bothered by the feelings flaying his dead heart without a moment's peace in the most peaceful place in the universe.

Then Wendy dies. Choked to death on a communion cracker. In heaven, Bob feels deep joy for the first time since he died. But even as he and Wendy embrace, he holds back, still torn by loyalty to Jan. Stuff it, says Wendy. The vow was until death do you part, and you crossed that bridge. We're here, she's there, let's get heavenly.

And they do. More years pass.

And then Jan dies. And goes to heaven, filled with anticipation of reunion with Bob.

Three souls meet in heaven. It does not go well.

If heaven is, as advertised, a paradise, full emotional faculty is necessary for paradise to be experienced as paradise. But full emotional faculty produces inescapable emotional torment. Heaven can't be anything but hellish - except to the brain-dead.

So how does that work - a heaven free of trouble filled with souls capable of feelings? Or perhaps the dead really are all brain-dead.

This cannot possibly be a question that Christians can seriously relate to. It just can't be.


Well, if it is indeed a scenario that 'Christians cannot seriously relate to', one has to wonder how so many of them live their lives around the prospect of a heaven with such unfathomable problems, no? Just replace the dying and heaven bits with geography, and you have a simple star-crossed lovers predicament where everyone is alive and well. The interesting point is that, assuming heaven doesn't fundamentally alter our personalities (divine non-interference being a cornerstone of theologian's free-will arguments), the simple addition of a paradise afterlife doesn't fundamentally solve this problem.

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13-01-2016, 10:22 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 09:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 08:51 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This cannot possibly be a question that Christians can seriously relate to. It just can't be.


Well, if it is indeed a scenario that 'Christians cannot seriously relate to', one has to wonder how so many of them live their lives around the prospect of a heaven with such unfathomable problems, no? Just replace the dying and heaven bits with geography, and you have a simple star-crossed lovers predicament where everyone is alive and well. The interesting point is that, assuming heaven doesn't fundamentally alter our personalities (divine non-interference being a cornerstone of theologian's free-will arguments), the simple addition of a paradise afterlife doesn't fundamentally solve this problem.

Okay, I’ll grant that the Christian view of heaven is not native to my way of thinking. But even still, this depiction doesn’t gel with what I thought I understood. What’s the point of crossing this hugely profound line (death) only to go on existing exactly as you had in your physical life?

Why doesn’t Bob just divorce Jan? He doesn’t love her anymore! Divorce Jan and let her get on with her life and attempt to find happiness with someone else.

I just didn't expect heaven to be depicted as a seamless continuation of the physical world, presumably just in clouds. This requires more research on my part.
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13-01-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 10:22 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 09:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Well, if it is indeed a scenario that 'Christians cannot seriously relate to', one has to wonder how so many of them live their lives around the prospect of a heaven with such unfathomable problems, no? Just replace the dying and heaven bits with geography, and you have a simple star-crossed lovers predicament where everyone is alive and well. The interesting point is that, assuming heaven doesn't fundamentally alter our personalities (divine non-interference being a cornerstone of theologian's free-will arguments), the simple addition of a paradise afterlife doesn't fundamentally solve this problem.

Okay, I’ll grant that the Christian view of heaven is not native to my way of thinking. But even still, this depiction doesn’t gel with what I thought I understood. What’s the point of crossing this hugely profound line (death) only to go on existing exactly as you had in your physical life?

Why doesn’t Bob just divorce Jan? He doesn’t love her anymore! Divorce Jan and let her get on with her life and attempt to find happiness with someone else.

I just didn't expect heaven to be depicted as a seamless continuation of the physical world, presumably just in clouds. This requires more research on my part.

Bob still loves Jan, just not as much as Wendy. I wonder if Jesus will be a divorce lawyer in heaven? Laugh out load

When I was still a Christian, I didn't even want to think about stuff like this. The creeping sense of just how ridiculous and contrived the entire concept of heaven was would become uncomfortable to seriously contemplate.

Best to dismiss it as a "mystery" and stop thinking.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-01-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 10:29 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Bob still loves Jan, just not as much as Wendy. I wonder if Jesus will be a divorce lawyer in heaven? Laugh out load

Ah. I see... yes, that's a problem.

Bob should convert to Judaism. Problem solved.
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13-01-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(13-01-2016 10:34 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 10:29 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Bob still loves Jan, just not as much as Wendy. I wonder if Jesus will be a divorce lawyer in heaven? Laugh out load

Ah. I see... yes, that's a problem.

Bob should convert to Judaism. Problem solved.

That is true. He could then take Wendy as a concubine, something not forbidden in Judaism as far as I am aware.

Edit, Also, the story clearly said that Bob was a christian which, if you take the words of Jesus, means that Bob may only divorce in the case of sexual immorality. A minor detail that most christians tend to ignore.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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