10 tough questions for theists.
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18-01-2016, 02:57 PM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(18-01-2016 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 09:26 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yes please. At least the Jews have some credibility on these matters.

No more than any other delusional belief system. Drinking Beverage

I don't find them delusional. I must be a Jew.



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18-01-2016, 03:05 PM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.



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18-01-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(18-01-2016 02:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  No more than any other delusional belief system. Drinking Beverage

I don't find them delusional. I must be a Jew.



No cheeseburgers? They ain't quite right in the head. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2016, 04:29 PM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(18-01-2016 04:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 02:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I don't find them delusional. I must be a Jew.



No cheeseburgers? They ain't quite right in the head. Drinking Beverage

There is that.

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18-01-2016, 06:41 PM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  1. How can we “objectively” see a difference between something that does not exist, and the god you believe in whom is separated from time and space and can never be observed or tested without equating events, existence to your god which would be a false cause fallacy, or making use of special pleading?
there is no any difference between something that doesn't exist and god that is separated from time and space.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  2. How can you possibly justify seeing a being whom infinitely tortures people for being born on the wrong side of the planet where Christianity doesn’t exist, believe in another deity they and their family has grown up with for generations or are an atheist as being the example of what ultimate good is?
I don't know. Who is this being might be?
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  3. If you are a creationist, have you ever once actually tried to study how science determines the age of rocks, what goes into the science itself, or any of the other mountains of science in the fields of biology, medicine, astronomy, geology, Astrophysics, Quantum Physics, and everything else that has even the slightest amount to do with science that has verified irrefutably that the universe is not 6-8000 years old and is in fact billions of years old and rely almost entirely on that being a fact or most of the science in those fields would collapse entirely?
No, I didn't study this in details.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  4. If you are a creationist and answered the question above than, Without using special pleading, the bible, your faith, or the statement that evolution is not real science which is a false statement, tell me why you believe that the world is only 6-8000 years old.
I don't believe this. God didn't reveal age of Earth.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  5. Without using the god wants to have a relationship with us argument, why is it that I as an atheist should believe that he exists, be more important than not raping a woman, murder, stealing someone? According to most Christian faiths, believing is the only criteria and no matter what you do, as long as you believe that is how you get in as the bible is quite clear about this fact.
Not all Christians believe this.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  6. Are you aware that the first four commandments are all the same exact commandment? If god was omniscient, don’t you really think that after you were to read the commandments again without your bible glasses on, that you might see some problems with that list?
I am not aware. What problems?
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  7. From a Christian standpoint, why do so many Christians hate Islam more than the other religions like Judaism and Shintoism and voodoo or Mithraism?
I can't answer for them. I don't hate Muslims. But I am not happy with radical Muslims.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  8. I actually want you to think about this for a good ten minutes. Doesn’t having an infinite afterlife make our finite life completely meaningless?
Why?
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  9. “If“you are one of the many majority of sects of Christianity that believes that Hitler is in Heaven because he repented for his crimes before committing suicide and that repenting and accepting Jesus is the only criteria for getting saved. Why don’t you murder and rape and steal and form an armed group of Christians to take over a nuclear missile silo and take it over and destroy the world? Or rape, then cook and eat babies in front of their parents, Repent and then kill yourself? If you can do all of that, repent with a few “oh please save me jesus I am sorry for I hath sinned” and then kill yourself and enjoy an infinite afterlife of endless joy and happiness while staring at the faces of all those you murdered or harmed as they look back at you knowing what you did to them and then you look down and see me in hell etc. Why don’t you do bad things or do any of that.
I am not one of those Christians. How do they know he repented? Consider

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20-01-2016, 08:14 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  2. How can you possibly justify seeing a being whom infinitely tortures people for being born on the wrong side of the planet where Christianity doesn’t exist, believe in another deity they and their family has grown up with for generations or are an atheist as being the example of what ultimate good is?

I asked this question to a group of theists, and it turns out there actually is a Biblical explanation to weasel out of this one. I don't feel like looking it up, now, but in one of the Epistles, it's mentioned that those who haven't been taught about Christ are not held to the same accountability as those who have. They're still supposed to be "descent people", but they don't actually have to accept Christ as their lord and savior. So, I guess that's good in a way, but it does bring up two other issues:
  • How does the person know by what criteria they are being judged? I imagine this is handwaved by everyone having a "conscience" and/or the Holy Spirit.
  • So... once people learn about Jesus, their chance of going to hell increases! It seems that Christians should stop all this proselytizing, because they are taking actions that increase the number of people in hell!*
*This assumes that the clause in the first point is true, and that everyone somehow "knows" to "be good". If not, then the whole point is moot, and we're back to God sending people to hell for arbitrary reasons.


(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  8. I actually want you to think about this for a good ten minutes. Doesn’t having an infinite afterlife make our finite life completely meaningless?

Similarly, there's another infinity issue that seems absurd: if all of creation is finite and God is infinite, then by definition, God existed by himself for infinity years before deciding to create anything else. It's no wonder he's insane.


(11-01-2016 07:57 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  9. “If“you are one of the many majority of sects of Christianity that believes that Hitler is in Heaven because he repented for his crimes before committing suicide and that repenting and accepting Jesus is the only criteria for getting saved....

I guess I don't know what the majority of sects feel about suicide. As an ex-Lutheran, I was taught that suicide is a sin, and you cannot repent (cuz you're dead), so you go to hell. I know Catholics take this stance, too. I suppose you could weasel one way or the other based on how you define repentance. Also, can you cheat the system by committing suicide by something irreversible, but that takes lone enough to kill you so you can repent?

You know, I shouldn't have been surprised when I stopped believing in all of this. Even as a kid, when I'd learn about these arbitrary, draconian rules, I was always looking at ways around them.
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20-01-2016, 08:36 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(20-01-2016 08:14 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  They're still supposed to be "descent people", but they don't actually have to accept Christ as their lord and savior.

So they have scriptural support that undermines the atonement theology? I'd like to see that chain of thought/interpretation/ad-hoc justification! Consider

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-01-2016, 08:54 AM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(20-01-2016 08:36 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So they have scriptural support that undermines the atonement theology? I'd like to see that chain of thought/interpretation/ad-hoc justification! Consider

Scriptures says little to nothing about atonement theology, the NT writers devoted very little time to that question, so much so that for the Catholic Church the question of atonement is an open one.

And it's only particular strains of conservative evangelicalism that often invest a great deal endorsing one particular atonement theology as the definitive response. Though it seems this confidence has been slowly dissolving into views more akin to the position of the Catholic church.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-01-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: 10 tough questions for theists.
(15-01-2016 08:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 07:58 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  A question that I always bring up in discussions:

1. If the god you believe in is going to punish me for eternity for the finite thought crime of being unconvinced that he exists, do you think I deserve it?

Is refusal to believe in an infinite God a finite crime?

Sure it is!

I'm only alive for about 80 years, the first 9 or so, I can't really be expected to contemplate or understand the question. So, compared to an eternal punishment, my 70 years of not being convinced that a god exists, is asymptotically equivalent to no time at all.

You can't get any more finite.
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