12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
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12-05-2012, 12:54 PM
12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
The 12 Best Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not Now,
And Never Should Be, A Christian Nation


May 11, 2012
By Deborah Montesano


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Christians today have the same problem as their fellow believers of two hundred years ago: “One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian.” –The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968.

The ‘Christian’ label did not even fit some of our early Presidents. However, whether religious or not, the great intellects of democracy had a vision of all that the United States could be. They wouldn’t have dreamed of imposing religion on their fellow Americans; they knew that this nation’s greatness came from not being a Christian one. In their own emphatic words:

1) “Enforced uniformity confounds civil and religious liberty and denies the principles of Christianity and civility. No man shall be required to worship or maintain a worship against his will.” Roger Williams, Puritan minister and founder of Rhode Island, in The Bloudy Tenet of Persecution, 1644.

2) “As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, – as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims), – and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” –Treaty of Tripoli

–initiated under President George Washington, 1796

–signed into law by President John Adams, 1797

–ratified unanimously by the Senate, 1797

–Published in full in all 13 states, with no record of complaint or dissent.

3) “But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.”–John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

4) “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

5) “I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.”–Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, 1808 [note that this does not say Christian religion; it refers to all religions, equally]

6) “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” –Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

7) “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

8) “Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

9) “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people… A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785 
.

10) “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” –James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance

11) “He had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term– he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects.” –Supreme Court Justice David Davis, on Abraham Lincoln

12)Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” –First Amendment, Constitution of the United States


Source: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/11/...t-reasons/

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12-05-2012, 09:21 PM
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
Ok I admit I didn't read the whole thing but I get what you are saying.

HOWEVER, it is all irrelevant. Why? Well thank you for asking I will tell you why.
Democracy.
But democracy is a good thing I hear you say, and I would agree. BUT, democracy works on the principle that the majority have their way. America is mostly Christian. So yes you can do atheist things, you can be an atheist etc.. BUT that wont get you voted in.

See what I mean. So yes historically the US was never suppose to be a Christian nation but today it very much is. Religion is a huge sway for a lot of people, if you're muslim you'd never get voted in. It's not illegal to be a muslim in the US, but it wont get you voted in.
See, USA is very much a Christian nation no matter how much people deny it or say it shouldn't be, the fact of the matter is that that is how it is.

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13-05-2012, 12:53 AM
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
I think "Christian Nation" and "Nation Full Of Christians" are two different things.

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13-05-2012, 02:55 AM
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
But "nation full of Christians" under a democratic system results in a "Christian nation".

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13-05-2012, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 10:57 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
(12-05-2012 09:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  HOWEVER, it is all irrelevant. Why? Well thank you for asking I will tell you why.
Democracy.
But democracy is a good thing I hear you say, and I would agree. BUT, democracy works on the principle that the majority have their way. America is mostly Christian. So yes you can do atheist things, you can be an atheist etc.. BUT that wont get you voted in.


One teensy weensy problem.

It's NOT a democracy.

It's a "Democratic Republic". The difference is EVERYTHING. They understood the "tyranny of the majority".

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men" http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

(HUGE paradigm shift BTW .. from "divine right of kings" to "authority derives from consent of governed" ... and so it goes ... the fight plays out every day, still).




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13-05-2012, 07:26 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 07:26 AM by Chas.)
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
(12-05-2012 09:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Ok I admit I didn't read the whole thing but I get what you are saying.

HOWEVER, it is all irrelevant. Why? Well thank you for asking I will tell you why.
Democracy.
But democracy is a good thing I hear you say, and I would agree. BUT, democracy works on the principle that the majority have their way. America is mostly Christian. So yes you can do atheist things, you can be an atheist etc.. BUT that wont get you voted in.

See what I mean. So yes historically the US was never suppose to be a Christian nation but today it very much is. Religion is a huge sway for a lot of people, if you're muslim you'd never get voted in. It's not illegal to be a muslim in the US, but it wont get you voted in.
See, USA is very much a Christian nation no matter how much people deny it or say it shouldn't be, the fact of the matter is that that is how it is.
You miss the point - it's a point of law.



(13-05-2012 02:55 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  But "nation full of Christians" under a democratic system results in a "Christian nation".
See Bucky Ball's answer.

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13-05-2012, 03:00 PM
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
Why are people so obsessed with what the founding fathers said? Can't we make logical decisions today? We have considerably more information, and supposedly a better understanding of our world around us. Why do we need to absolutely follow the outdated and flawed ideas of people who died 200 years ago?
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13-05-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
(13-05-2012 06:45 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-05-2012 09:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  HOWEVER, it is all irrelevant. Why? Well thank you for asking I will tell you why.
Democracy.
But democracy is a good thing I hear you say, and I would agree. BUT, democracy works on the principle that the majority have their way. America is mostly Christian. So yes you can do atheist things, you can be an atheist etc.. BUT that wont get you voted in.


One teensy weensy problem.

It's NOT a democracy.

It's a "Democratic Republic". The difference is EVERYTHING. They understood the "tyranny of the majority".

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men" http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

(HUGE paradigm shift BTW .. from "divine right of kings" to "authority derives from consent of governed" ... and so it goes ... the fight plays out every day, still).



Democracy, 'democratic republic', whatever you wanna call it your president is still elected via popular vote and hence my point remains.

Quote: You miss the point - it's a point of law.
No sir, you miss the point. well of my post anyway.

I understand that it was set up ages ago by some guys with top hats and bushy beards that the state and the church should be separate but what I am saying is in response to the title that the US is not now a Cristian nation, saying that the US is a Cristian nation because it elects its president via popular majority and because so much of the US people are retar.. errr, Cristian then it becomes a Cristian nation.
If you can only do things in government that a Cristian would approve of, because to differently would get you voted out, then you're gonna do Cristian related things, ie: ban on gay marriage.
The middle east is for the most part full of Muslim countries, they are considered Muslim countries because they is mostly Muslim people in them and the government works to accommodate to that.
So to say the US is not a Cristian nation is to say middle eastern countries are not Muslim countries (most of them).

Not to mention politicians rambling on about 'thank god' this or 'god bless' that.

Quote: Why are people so obsessed with what the founding fathers said? Can't we
make logical decisions today? We have considerably more information,
and supposedly a better understanding of our world around us. Why do we
need to absolutely follow the outdated and flawed ideas of people who
died 200 years ago?
You could say the same to any theist, except times that 200 by 10.

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13-05-2012, 08:45 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 10:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
(13-05-2012 06:34 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If you can only do things in government that a Cristian would approve of, because to differently would get you voted out, then you're gonna do Cristian related things, ie: ban on gay marriage.

There is no such thing as "a" Christian. You assume uniformity where there is none. 50 % of Lutherans don't know who Martin Luther was, 50 % of Catholics don't know what "transubstantiation" means. Most "Christians" don't know shit about their own religion.

George Bush "said" he was a Christian, and he started a war. A "Christian" would not have done that.

They do whatever they want, and justify it however the spin doctors tell them.

"Christian nation" is a euphemism to make people think they can be comfortable with whatever the nation is up to, in whatever is the comfortable, "traditional" way. If they were REAL Christians, this would not be a Capitalist society, and we'd all be in a giant commune. It's a meaningless label, signifying nothing. There are as many ideas of what that means, as there are people in the nation.

The "thank god" this, and "god bless that" is about mind control/advertising/group forming behavior. It has NOTHING to do with gods, or prayer, or "blessings".

If you asked 100 people what "salvation" means, 85 % would have no idea what you were asking about.

It might be a nation which claims to have certain historical ties, to certain aspects, of certain christianities.

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13-05-2012, 09:55 PM
RE: 12 Reasons Why The U.S. Is Not A Christian Nation
(13-05-2012 08:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-05-2012 06:34 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If you can only do things in government that a Cristian would approve of, because to differently would get you voted out, then you're gonna do Cristian related things, ie: ban on gay marriage.

There is no such thing as "a" Christian. You assume uniformity where there is none. 50 % of Lutheran don't know who Martin Luther was, 50 % of Catholics don't know what "transubstantiation" means. Most "Christians" don't know shit about their own religion.

George Bush "said" he was a Christian, and he started a war. A "Christian" would not have done that.

They do whatever they want, and justify it however the spin doctors tell them.

"Christian nation" is a euphemism to make people think they can be comfortable with whatever the nation is up to, in whatever is the comfortable, "traditional" way. If they were REAL Christians, this would not be a Capitalist society, and we'd all be in a giant commune. It's a meaningless label, signifying nothing. There are as many ideas of what that means, as there are people in the nation.

The "thank god" this, and "god bless that" is about mind control/advertising/group forming behavior. It has NOTHING to do with gods, or prayer, or "blessings".

If you asked 100 people what "salvation" means, 85 % would have no idea what you were asking about.

It might be a nation which claims to have certain historical ties, to certain aspects, of certain christianities.
You raised good points. Ok you've convinced me.

So the US is like its people, a sloppy Cristian nation?

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