12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-01-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So you're a Mormon that doesn't think the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired?

I don't recall saying that at all. I do recall explaining that I rejected the inference that "inspired" unilaterally means "historically true." No one ever engaged that point, though. Would you like to? Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth.

(16-01-2014 11:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yet you're a member of the Church and consent to their authority? Okay, why do you consent to such a setup? What do you get out of it? You don't think the book is historically accurate or divinely inspired, so you're happy to give the Church your time and income because?

That's my business, and I'll thank you to stop putting words in my mouth, particularly after I explicitly reject them.

(16-01-2014 11:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, why? That's what I don't get. What do you get out of it if it's not literal truth, historically accurate, or divinely inspired? What do you get out of it that couldn't be had outside of your cult? I'm just not seeing it. Huh

And you're not going to, particularly when you keep making assumptions about my motivations and worldview and keep putting words in my mouth.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:39 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Agreed. Of course, I never challenged this. That it's material is quite different from how you interpret its materiality, and it's clear from your comments that you have no capacity for understanding or forgiveness when it comes to childhood mistakes. I'm glad to see you've abandoned your original claim that he was convicted, though. At least I could educate one person here about LDS history.


So all of this conversation, and it boils down to this. LDS does not spend a lot of time examining the credibility of JS because they have forgiven him for his childhood (although actually committed in adulthood) mistakes. Holy christ...You just wasted an hour of my time when you could have just said that shit from the beginning.

further, I did not abandon my claim that he was convicted. Since you are absofuckinglutely convinced that he wasn't, it was far easier to continue to the conversation on the basis of what you are convinced of, instead of wasting my time refuting something that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of. So instead of arguing semantics over conviction vs charged, I went along with charged because in the end, it makes no difference anyway, his credibility regarding these claims is obliterated.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:39 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You know, Makle, there really isn't a need for page long responses that pick apart every sentence. Some things can go left unsaid.

For you, maybe, since you're the privileged one on this message board. Not for me. I will be called on the carpet at some point for every single word I don't directly address, no matter how self-evident the point was that I didn't think needed to be made.

(16-01-2014 11:39 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  For example, it is unnecessary for you to quote me regarding criminal standards, just so that you can haughtily tell me, "I am very well aware of the burden of proof." It adds nothing to the conversation, or furthers the debate in any way. In fact, its only purpose appears to be so that you can assert that you are smarter than I and that no one can possibly tell you something you don't know. If you wanna bang on your chest that you are smarter than I, go ahead, but IMO, it makes you look stupid.

I'm covering my own butt. I apologize if it confuses or irritates you.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 06:40 AM)maklelan Wrote:  A quick comment about the Book of Mormon, though, and my claim about not knowing many Latter-day Saints who believe it is the "literal . . . direct word of God." I do not mean by that "not inspired," or "not God's word." It's part of our Articles of Faith that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and that's the phraseology that you encounter in the temple recommend interview.

Look, I am willing to at least consider that I might just be misunderstanding this, but I don't understand how this isn't an obvious contradiction. In more simple language this is what I am getting, "It is not the literal and direct word of God, but it is the inspired word of God." I do not understand the distinction here, or the difference in result in the mind of a member.

(16-01-2014 06:40 AM)maklelan Wrote:  The vast majority of my peers within the LDS Church are advocates of the loose translation theory. That's not to say there are no significant proponents of the tight translation theory (Royal Skousen, particularly, comes to mind). In light of this disagreement, I don't think very many of either side would call the Book of Mormon the unfiltered and pristine, literal and direct words of God himself.

I have never heard of The Loose Translation Theory, until today. When I was taught the gospel, no such theory was ever mentioned. I am curious, where did you first encounter this? Was it while learning the gospel in a congregation, or by your own private study? Is this ever taught in church as a doctrine?

God, I must seem very backwards to you in this respect. My experience and upbringing within the church was in essence as fundamental and conservative as you can get. (Maybe I will be proved wrong if I chance to meet someone with an even more fundamental background, but until then I will assume its safe to call my experience fundamental.) You appear to represent a church supported world view which is vastly different from what I and my member friends experience all around the world.

There appears to be an entire layer of scholars in Mormonism, busily arguing and disagreeing with one another, while the lay member (in some cases) is trapped in unchangeable dogma. If this isn't evidence that my belief in Mormon doctrinal consistency is illusory, I don't know what is. It appears there is more than one church, in more than one sense.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:43 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 11:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So you're a Mormon that doesn't think the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired?

I don't recall saying that at all. I do recall explaining that I rejected the inference that "inspired" unilaterally means "historically true." No one ever engaged that point, though. Would you like to? Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth.

(16-01-2014 11:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yet you're a member of the Church and consent to their authority? Okay, why do you consent to such a setup? What do you get out of it? You don't think the book is historically accurate or divinely inspired, so you're happy to give the Church your time and income because?

That's my business, and I'll thank you to stop putting words in my mouth, particularly after I explicitly reject them.

(16-01-2014 11:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yeah, why? That's what I don't get. What do you get out of it if it's not literal truth, historically accurate, or divinely inspired? What do you get out of it that couldn't be had outside of your cult? I'm just not seeing it. Huh

And you're not going to, particularly when you keep making assumptions about my motivations and worldview and keep putting words in my mouth.


I wouldn't have to put words in your mouth if you would actually say anything besides dodging the fucking question; which is the entirety of your response. This is probably why people are calling you a condescending prick. You aren't answering direct questions, then get made at us when we can't figure out what in the fuck you actually mean... Dodgy

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
16-01-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So all of this conversation, and it boils down to this.

Yes, and I warned you at the very beginning that I didn't want to derail the thread with this colossal waste of time. You knew better, though, and you glared down your snout at me and told me I was wrong. Now we know I was not wrong, and we've all wasted a ton of time.

(16-01-2014 11:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  LDS does not spend a lot of time examining the credibility of JS because they have forgiven him for his childhood (although actually committed in adulthood) mistakes. Holy christ...You just wasted an hour of my time when you could have just said that shit from the beginning.

I tried to explain to you that this was not a row worth hoeing. You're now trying to extrapolate some kind of rhetorical point so you are left with something about which to criticize me, but in the end this was all your doing, and you cannot even acknowledge that you've abandoned the very point that catalyzed the whole waste of time.

(16-01-2014 11:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  further, I did not abandon my claim that he was convicted.

Yes you did above when you restated your point about him being convicted, but changed the wording to just say "charged with fraud."

(16-01-2014 11:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Since you are absofuckinglutely convinced that he wasn't, it was far easier to continue to the conversation on the basis of what you are convinced of, instead of wasting my time refuting something that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of. So instead of arguing semantics over conviction vs charged, I went along with charged because in the end, it makes no difference anyway, his credibility regarding these claims is obliterated.

So on what grounds do you continue to believe he was convicted? If you've got some secret evidence to drop on me, let's have it. Enough with the suspense already. Educate me. Show me how history is really done.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:55 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:53 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 11:45 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So all of this conversation, and it boils down to this.

Yes, and I warned you at the very beginning that I didn't want to derail the thread with this colossal waste of time. You knew better, though, and you glared down your snout at me and told me I was wrong. Now we know I was not wrong, and we've all wasted a ton of time.

snout? Ha. What am I, a little pig?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I wouldn't have to put words in your mouth if you would actually say anything besides dodging the fucking question; which is the entirety of your response.

All you gotta do is ask me. You ask me an honest question you will get an honest answer (unless it's the issue I've explained I will not address).

(16-01-2014 11:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This is probably why people are calling you a condescending prick. You aren't answering direct questions, then get made at us when we can't figure out what in the fuck you actually mean... Dodgy

I am absolutely answering direct questions (except for the above-mentioned). What I'm not answering are leading and manipulative questions.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:56 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 11:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I wouldn't have to put words in your mouth if you would actually say anything besides dodging the fucking question; which is the entirety of your response.

All you gotta do is ask me. You ask me an honest question you will get an honest answer (unless it's the issue I've explained I will not address).

(16-01-2014 11:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This is probably why people are calling you a condescending prick. You aren't answering direct questions, then get made at us when we can't figure out what in the fuck you actually mean... Dodgy

I am absolutely answering direct questions (except for the above-mentioned). What I'm not answering are leading and manipulative questions.

He has asked you 5 times. You refuse to answer his question through misdirection that all he has to do is ask you. He has asked you. Answer him.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-01-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(16-01-2014 11:55 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  snout? Ha. What am I, a little pig?

No, you're a human person. It's a rhetorical adaptation of "glare down your nose." I'm trying to do what you advocate in your signature line. Certainly you don't reserve the right to be a little rhetorically insulting from time to time only to yourself.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: