12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
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17-01-2014, 10:36 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 10:28 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:21 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Please don't play coy. It's Not respecting the forum, Alla.

If you get the correlation I made between Your claim and what Wicca could also claim - then say so. If you Don't "get it" then please explain why.
Look all I was saying is that my faith is not based on a book. There are also the Holy Ghost and the prophets.
It means that there are revelations. My faith can also be built on those revelations.
yes, anybody can claim this as you pointed, I agree with you.



So if you can appreciate that another religion can make the same claim as yours then you can appreciate how ridiculous you can sound to others? Right? Fair is fair. How exactly does this benefit you? And why do you insist on proselytizing your particular faith here when you sound ridiculous? Why would you do that?


You seem smart to me, Alla.
Why would you engage in something so self-defeating? Aren't there religious forums where you might discuss your faith and Enjoy getting to make your marshmellowy-faith comments to the pleasure of others and yourself?

You wish to appear Unshakable in your faith - I get that. But not addressing comments, posts and questions put to you in a rational fashion when it is You who've chosen an atheist forum.........well it's an irrational thing to do.

If you could answer questions honestly and not just spout words from a book or religious non-sense (which you know will fall on deaf ears here) Then you can confirm or deny your faith.

Personally, I do not wish to separate you from your faith. Why would I?
But seeing you live up to the intelligence I think you really have by being intellectually honest here on this forum? Yes........ that's another matter.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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17-01-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 09:29 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 09:13 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  If the point of Mormonism is to arrive at the truth, yet the BoM, is not: 1) historically accurate and therefore not historically reliable; and 2) it's not literal, literal in truth and literal in meaning, then what follows is that faith is an unreliable method for reaching the truth.

And if the point of Mormonism is to arrive at the truth, yet you must have faith in order to follow this particular epistemology, and faith is an unreliable way to reach the truth, then you are excercising what chippy loves to say (since his thoughts are phallicly centered) a circle jerk.

So the literalness and fictionality of any faith literature is actually quite central and important, since the purpose of faith is to determine the truth.




Cath-- I really like the post. However, I'm not sure the purpose of faith is to determine the truth(?) Faith and truth can be very opposite things. Rarely, IMHO do they ever even intersect.

I disagree. All religions claim that their particular religion is the true path, and answers the questions of where did we come from, what is our purpose, what happens after we die, etc, truthfully. I am not, i repeat, am not, trying to make the link that faith and truthfulness coincide (as in having faith leads to truth.)

The purpose of religion - when it is boiled down - is to arrive at answers. Scientists attempt to arrive at answers through the examination of evidence and the repeated testing of their hypothesis. Religion attempts to arrive at answers through faith.

My point was simply that faith is an unreliable way to determine truth. So what is the point of believing in anything if it will not facilitate your understanding of the truth? Which is why the historical and literary literalness of the book is central to determining if something is true.

Chippy was making the rather obvious and unnecessary point that fables and fiction have value, not because of their literalness, but because of the usefulness of the message it contains. Thats great. But he forgets there are a lot of fables, moralistic stories and tales we are aware of that we gained the value of the message without building a religion (and a way of life) around it. For example, The Star Belly Sneetches is one of my favorite fictional life lessons, but I do not built my life around the Sneetch Church, or alter my life in any way that would suggest I believe truthfulness to the presence of a Sneetch (Star bellied or otherwise), nor do I give 10% of my income to the prodigal children of Dr. Seuss. We all know the tale of the boy who cried wolf, and understand the importance of this lesson, without the The Church of Ladder day Canis Lupis, or providing symbolic virginal sacrifices to Canis Lupis.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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17-01-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 10:43 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Chippy was making the rather obvious and unnecessary point that fables and fiction have value, not because of their literalness, but because of the usefulness of the message it contains. Thats great. But he forgets there are a lot of fables, moralistic stories and tales we are aware of that we gained the value of the message without building a religion (and a way of life) around it. For example, The Star Belly Sneetches is one of my favorite fictional life lessons, but I do not built my life around the Sneetch Church, or alter my life in any way that would suggest I believe truthfulness to the presence of a Sneetch (Star bellied or otherwise), nor do I give 10% of my income to the prodigal children of Dr. Seuss. We all know the tale of the boy who cried wolf, and understand the importance of this lesson, without the The Church of Ladder day Canis Lupis, or providing symbolic virginal sacrifices to Canis Lupis.


Faith is an unreliable method for reaching truth. I agree with you.
As to Chippy - that's a very odd stance for him to take given his attitude towards Wicca - which is the very best example of how mythology CAN lead to the wrong end. So count me confused on that one.

Meanwhile
thanks CathShy

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17-01-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 10:36 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  So if you can appreciate that another religion can make the same claim as yours then you can appreciate how ridiculous you can sound to others? Right? Fair is fair.
right, I understand what you are talking about.

(17-01-2014 10:36 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  How exactly does this benefit you?
And why do you insist on proselytizing your particular faith here when you sound ridiculous? Why would you do that?
I am not proselyting here. If I wanted to proselyte here I would preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. This is not my calling to proselyte people. We have full time missionaries for this.

(17-01-2014 10:36 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Why would you engage in something so self-defeating? Aren't there religious forums where you might discuss your faith and Enjoy getting to make your marshmellowy-faith comments to the pleasure of others and yourself?
good point. I know that atheists forums or even some Christian forums is not the best place to talk about my faith. But there are some people who have genuine questions and I like to answer them to the best of my ability.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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17-01-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 11:10 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 10:36 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  So if you can appreciate that another religion can make the same claim as yours then you can appreciate how ridiculous you can sound to others? Right? Fair is fair.
right, I understand what you are talking about.

(17-01-2014 10:36 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  How exactly does this benefit you?
And why do you insist on proselytizing your particular faith here when you sound ridiculous? Why would you do that?
I am not proselyting here. If I wanted to proselyte here I would preach faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. This is not my calling to proselyte people. We have full time missionaries for this.

(17-01-2014 10:36 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Why would you engage in something so self-defeating? Aren't there religious forums where you might discuss your faith and Enjoy getting to make your marshmellowy-faith comments to the pleasure of others and yourself?
good point. I know that atheists forums or even some Christian forums is not the best place to talk about my faith. But there are some people who have genuine questions and I like to answer them to the best of my ability.



In the interest of peace I'm just gonna leave that alone, Alla.
May your stay with us prove truly enlightening to you ---- in time.


Angel

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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17-01-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 12:16 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  In the interest of peace I'm just gonna leave that alone, Alla.
May your stay with us prove truly enlightening to you ---- in time.


Angel
I like what you said. friends?Smile

English is not my native language.
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17-01-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 12:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 12:16 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  In the interest of peace I'm just gonna leave that alone, Alla.
May your stay with us prove truly enlightening to you ---- in time.


Angel
I like what you said. friends?Smile

Sure.
I think you've misunderstood (probably my bad jokes) some things I've said to you, Alla. I don't really have a problem when people have beliefs. I do have a problem if they cannot explain their beliefs from a stance of intellectual honesty - especially with themselves. It's just hard to watch.

Never make a fool of yourself. You're smarter than that.Thumbsup

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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17-01-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
Wow, what a farrago of utter bullshit, rambling incoherence, strawmen and bovine stupidity.

(17-01-2014 06:40 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Since I did my thesis paper on Friedman, I am well aware of his work. I'm not too sure where you got the idea that I mentioned economics at all or that this was Friedman's main driving point. Nay nay.

Nowhere did I say that "this was Friedman's main driving point".

Quote:Second, you are once again getting your economic schooling from Wikipedia I see. Friedman didn't will the Nobel for "Friedman contended that an economic theory shouldn't have its value judged with reference to how "realistic" it was--he argued that realism was irrelevant and that theory should be judged in terms of usefulness and in economics...."

Again, nowhere did I say that he won the Nobel Prize for his paper The Methodology of Positive Economics .

Quote:Friedman won the Nobel for his anti-Keynesian monetary theory, consumption anayslis and his demonstration of stabilization policies. But nice try, Darlin

Nowhere did I suggest otherwise.

Quote:My point, which you entirely overlooked, is that his run in with the law is material to his credibility for finding the plates and the ludicrous story of an angel and planets.

No I haven't overlooked that.

Quote:Also - you seem to think that "if he didn't mean it" that it's not breaking any laws. Or if you had no ill intents. You can belief wholeheartedly that you paid for an item. If you can't demonstrate that you did, You still get arrested for shoplifting. Or, alternatively, if you drink and get in your car, you have no intention or hurting anyone and believe that you are not drunk and fine to drive. You still go to jail for second degree murder if you do. To preempt YOU, so that you don't cause me of anything ethnocentric, since it happened in the US, I'm applying US jurisprudence.

In all common law countries to prove that a crime did occur the prosecution must demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt actus rea and mens rea.

Quote:Whether or not he carried te talisman because he actually believed in magic or because he was playing a part is irrelevant.

Actually it isn't. It along with his lifelong fascination with Freemasonry suggests that we was a superstitious person.

Quote:Also, who said it had to be one or the other? So if he carried around a talisman and was superstitious it means he also didn't know it was bogus. It's not mutually exclusive.


Superstitious people often carry charms and talismans. My narrative explains more than what you are proposing.

Quote:I know lots of people that don't believe in god, yet are superstitious about football games. Ie, the same shirt must be worn in order for Notre dame to win.

Yes, so if they also tell you about some other superstitious belief you have good cause to believe that they are being sincere.

Quote:Sometimes chip, when you try to look smart, you just look stupid.

You always look stupid because that is how you are.

Quote:It's also worth noting - mainly because it's really ironic - is that Friedman's teaching philosophy was that economics be accessible to everyone. Meaning, he felt that you didn't need to talk down to anyone to teach it. He felt that using superfluous vocubulary when discussing economic policy had the opposite effect of teaching and turned people off to listening. He felt that learning was had by participation and you couldn't participate if you felt that everyone was smarter than you.

So go read his paper The Methodology of Positive Economics--it is loaded with jargon and is inaccesible to most people.

Quote:Ironic, Chip, that you would try to teach about him in this way.

Have you read The Methodology of Positive Economics?
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17-01-2014, 07:56 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 06:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fair enough, and you do make the point far better than Maklelan. If however there was a Church of Aesop dedicated to and built upon those mythic fables, I'd still question the purpose of the Church's existence (and anyone's allegiance to it) outside of it being a racket.

That sort of thing isn't for me either and I hazard a guess that it appeals only to certain temperaments but I can--I believe--understand why someone would belong to such an organisation. I don't agree that it is necessarily a racket. I am confident that the CoS is a racket and I am also confident that it does not produce virtuous or happy people but I don't think all religious organisations are akin to the CoS.

Belonging to a "faith community" can confer benefits: intangibles such as a sense of belonging, emotional support during major milestones of life etc. and tangibles such as money and food in hard-times. Again, this isn't for me and I presume it isn't for you either but that isn't grounds for pretending that there can be no benefit in being a part of an organised religion. And the mythological base in no way diminishes this role.

My knowledge of the bureaucracy of the LDS is non-existent--I have no idea how or who governs it. I think a good test for corruption would be how the uppermost echelons of the church hierarchy live. If they live like kings and spend money like drunken sailors and the money they spend is from the tithes of the members--as per most USA tele-evangelists such as Benny Hinn--then I would agree that it is indeed a racket. If instead the leadership draws a salary comparable to the management of a similarly sized corporation then that counts in their favour.

Regarding Aesop's fables, they are a set of unconnected fables thay don't comprise a worldview so they can't really form the basis of a religion. To borrow a postmodernist term, the mythology needs to be totalizing.
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17-01-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(17-01-2014 07:22 PM)Chippy Wrote:  Wow, what a farrago of utter bullshit, rambling incoherence, strawmen and bovine stupidity.

(17-01-2014 06:40 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Since I did my thesis paper on Friedman, I am well aware of his work. I'm not too sure where you got the idea that I mentioned economics at all or that this was Friedman's main driving point. Nay nay.

Nowhere did I say that "this was Friedman's main driving point".

So your point of bringing up his Nobel prize was...???

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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