12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
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15-01-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 11:44 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Him: No day will pass without a church related responsibility or demand.
You: Completely false. Not even the bishop has zero free days in a given week. (personal experience)

No, telling everyone out in the Internets that if you join the LDS Church, no day will pass without a church-related responsibility or demand is a declaration of fact, not an explanation of an experience, even if it is a conclusion drawn from experience (which is nowhere asserted). The poster obviously has not held any really serious callings in the Church, though, and so I simply do not believe that they have ever experienced a week with seven straight days of church-related responsibilities or demands. I have never seen it happen, and I have never heard of it happening. If the poster insists it did happen, which they have not, they are more than welcome to explain to me the circumstances. That will not change the fact that the declaration that anyone here who joins the Church will have to endure that is flatly false.

(15-01-2014 11:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Him: You will never think for yourself again.
You: Pure rubbish. When I first joined the Church I started going to institute in Dallas, and something that has always undergirded my own education in the Church was a big prominent sign in the middle of the classroom wall that said "Find Out For Yourself." We were encouraged to read and study on our own, and to think for ourselves. (personal experience)

No, "I never thought for myself" is a personal experience. "You will never think for yourself again" is an assertion of fact that is rather easily proven false.

(15-01-2014 11:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Him: If you discover these tampered parts of the history on your own, you will be openly stonewalled and even punished severely for trying to do anything with that information. Your membership and associated benefits are only available to you if you remain in line at all times.
You: That's not true. You can be ecclesiastically "punished" if you openly and publicly oppose Church leadership regarding the fundamental tenets of Joseph Smith's calling, the inspired nature of the Book of Mormon, and the priesthood authority of contemporary leadership, but even then you've got to be pretty adamant about it. (personal experience)

Do I need to go on?

No, you need to learn the difference between a personal experience, and an assertion that may or may not be based on a personal experience.
I thought it was obvious that his statements are extrapolations based on his personal experience (please correct me if I'm wrong, Dark Phoenix).

If he and all of his Mormon acquaintances were taught not to think for themselves while they were members of the LDS church, for instance, then it's not too hard to imagine why he would think that this is common practice.

I agree with you that his experience is not necessarily representative of the whole church, but neither is yours. All you can say is that these practices are not being advocated by the church's ideology.

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15-01-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 11:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:33 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  MAK - So if you did not join for the caring people, and there is horrifying behavior done on the part of LDS, and you view all religions as having somewhat of a mythical basis, then why did you join?

That's my business, and I've already explained multiple times here that I will not be going into it. Assume all you want about my motivations.

I think we could assume that you don't actually believe their ridiculous theology and doctrines, and have joined to do inside research for a scholarly study or exposé of the LDS.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-01-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:09 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I thought it was obvious that his statements are extrapolations based on his personal experience (please correct me if I'm wrong, Dark Phoenix).

No, you just barked "personal experience" a bunch. Irrespective, projecting his own personal experiences across a global community of faith opens up his interpretations to criticism, particularly by someone who operates across the boundaries of that global community.

(15-01-2014 12:09 PM)Vosur Wrote:  If he and all of his Mormon acquaintances were taught not to think for themselves while they were members of the LDS church, for instance, then it's not too hard to imagine why he would think that this is common practice.

It's also not hard to point out that claiming any new members of the Church will unilaterally be prevented from ever thinking for themselves again is an incredibly naive and presumptuous thing to do, whatever his own personal experience. As I have explicitly stated multiple times now, I am not saying he did not have these experiences (most of them), I'm saying he is not justified in presuming that his own personal experiences hold for all of Mormondom. His exposure to the global Church seems minuscule if it exists at all.

(15-01-2014 12:09 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I agree with you that his experience is not necessarily representative of the whole church, but neither is yours.

As I also pointed out, I deal with multiple different LDS communities around the world every single day. It's my job. Additionally, I have taught and been a leader in LDS communities on three different continents and several different states. I am also quite active within the online LDS global community. I cannot and do not pretend to speak for every member, but to insist his conclusions about the worldwide Church are just as valid as mine is laughable.

(15-01-2014 12:09 PM)Vosur Wrote:  All you can say is that these practices are not being advocated by the church's ideology.

No, I can also point out where he is exaggerating for rhetorical effect and where he's just plain wrong. If he wants to get into history or the LDS hermeneutic, I can also correct him there.

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15-01-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  That's my business, and I've already explained multiple times here that I will not be going into it. Assume all you want about my motivations.

I think we could assume that you don't actually believe their ridiculous theology and doctrines, and have joined to do inside research for a scholarly study or exposé of the LDS.

Could be, but his deffensiveness suggests something very real. The claws of indoctrination appear to be in way to deep!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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15-01-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:34 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Could be, but his deffensiveness suggests something very real. The claws of indoctrination appear to be in way to deep!

Thanks for the psychoanalysis over the internet. Now I know you're not just your garden-variety internet atheist.

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15-01-2014, 12:58 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:43 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 12:34 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Could be, but his deffensiveness suggests something very real. The claws of indoctrination appear to be in way to deep!

Thanks for the psychoanalysis over the internet. Now I know you're not just your garden-variety internet atheist.

I find it easiest to perform a psychoanalysis through an internet forum! C'mom man, it is just a little snide comment there - no analysis and no conclusions. I did say "could be", "suggests", and "appear" for chr$st sakes. You continually defend the LDS faith and are now correcting former members of this faith, so swallow the mockery that it deserves.

If I am a garden variety athiest, then I am just a seedling compared to many members of this site.

Ah, why do I get sucked back in...run away...run away!!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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15-01-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:43 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 12:34 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Could be, but his deffensiveness suggests something very real. The claws of indoctrination appear to be in way to deep!

Thanks for the psychoanalysis over the internet. Now I know you're not just your garden-variety internet atheist.


Meklelan you give as many knee-jerk, sarcastic and insulting responses here as you get. So don't go acting all high-and-mighty-holier-than-thou on anyone here.
You've been snarky since day one as you cannot handle tough questions. So your persecution complex will likely go unwashed and unabated here.

in short:
get over yourself

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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15-01-2014, 01:03 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:43 PM)maklelan Wrote:  Thanks for the psychoanalysis over the internet. Now I know you're not just your garden-variety internet atheist.
Dude enough with your passive aggressive attitude!Dodgy

Don't forget that you're the one who's constantly trying to defend a racist and an unscientific ideology NOT us.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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15-01-2014, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 02:52 PM by Vosur.)
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
(15-01-2014 12:31 PM)maklelan Wrote:  No, you just barked "personal experience" a bunch. Irrespective, projecting his own personal experiences across a global community of faith opens up his interpretations to criticism, particularly by someone who operates across the boundaries of that global community.
(15-01-2014 12:31 PM)maklelan Wrote:  It's also not hard to point out that claiming any new members of the Church will unilaterally be prevented from ever thinking for themselves again is an incredibly naive and presumptuous thing to do, whatever his own personal experience. As I have explicitly stated multiple times now, I am not saying he did not have these experiences (most of them), I'm saying he is not justified in presuming that his own personal experiences hold for all of Mormondom.
(15-01-2014 12:31 PM)maklelan Wrote:  No, I can also point out where he is exaggerating for rhetorical effect and where he's just plain wrong. If he wants to get into history or the LDS hermeneutic, I can also correct him there.
I do not dispute any of this.

(15-01-2014 12:31 PM)maklelan Wrote:  His exposure to the global Church seems minuscule if it exists at all.
(15-01-2014 12:31 PM)maklelan Wrote:  As I also pointed out, I deal with multiple different LDS communities around the world every single day. It's my job. Additionally, I have taught and been a leader in LDS communities on three different continents and several different states. I am also quite active within the online LDS global community. I cannot and do not pretend to speak for every member, but to insist his conclusions about the worldwide Church are just as valid as mine is laughable.
Firstly, I don't know if what you say above is actually true, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Secondly, unlike you, I don't pretend to know anything about his background.

It's perfectly possible that he has experienced a comparable level of exposure to the global LDS community (prior to his deconversion) for all you know.

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15-01-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: 12 Reasons You Should Reject Mormonism
On another thread, I have already conceded that my experience was in the 90s and I accept things may have changed but in the 90s my experience was that of fundamentalism across the board in LDS. I worked closely in the church with east and west coast American missionaries, central American and also people from South America, Scotland, Spain, Germany, Italy and England, where I'm from. The OP's experience and understanding of LDS is parallel to mine. I genuinely can not recall meeting anyone who did not endorse the hardline. ... It may be true things have changed in 20 years I don't know. It raises the question why for me. I've alluded to my suspicions in a different thread so won't repeat them here. I just wanted to jump in because my 3 years in the church was not at all different to the OPs.

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