12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
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27-11-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  As for shooting being a first resort; generally it isn't ...

Unless you're black.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-11-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:08 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Yabut, it was a 12 year old kid who had no idea that it was a stupid thing to do.

Maybe I'm biased because of a 15 year old kid that was shot and killed by a cop simply for throwing stuff at the police car here a few years ago.

But seriously, it was just a kid, even if it was a real gun, there's just something seriously wrong about pointing your gun at a 12 year old.

1) Even a 12 year old should know that that is a stupid thing to do. Hell the six year-olds I work with would know better than that.

2) Of course they have to be prepared to shoot anyone who is a threat. What do you expect them to do if they receive a report of a 12 year old shooting up a school? Sit outside and listen to the massacre whilst waiting for them to get bored?

3) The cops didn't know he was 12. From what they radioed they were under the impression he was about 20. Cops can hardly be expected to stop and ask every dangerous suspect they face for age identification before they decide what force to use.

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27-11-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Unless you're black.

Already covered that in a earlier post. It's called poor logic on your part.

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27-11-2014, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2014 04:29 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:14 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 04:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Unless you're black.

Already covered that in a earlier post. It's called poor logic on your part.

I prefer to call it statistics.The poor man's logic. It's less pejorative.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-11-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:01 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 03:55 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  These things may not have been available to them, but they should be. That's what I'm saying.

You are missing the point. Why are we focusing on the "what if the kid killed someone" scenario? Well, what if the police thought you had a gun while you had no idea and you tried to get your phone from your pocket and you got shot?

Do you want to live in a world where the only way the police can stop you is by killing you?

Well 1. if the police pulled up to me with their guns drawn I wouldn't reach for anything, I'd put my hands up. That's common sense. Your right though, more non lethal options should be available to all cops, I do not disagree with you on that.

Yes, agreed. We're all taking past each other. You are talking about what if scenarios, I am talking about this particular scenario in which the cops flew in hot headed and a child was killed. I'm not calling for the cop to be charged, I'm sure he now has demons enough to deal with. I'm saying that this particular situation was handled very poorly.

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27-11-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  If you pull up and someone is literally reaching for what you believe to be a weapon though then those options go out of the window.

Why did they pull up so close to an armed person anyway?

(27-11-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Tbh though, these situations happen all the time (cops get report of idiot with weapon, turn up, shoot uncooperative idiot who's a potential threat) and no-one has any issue with it. The only difference here is the idiot's age, and the fact that the weapon turned out to be fake. If that is part of the reasoning then it is the outcome that is being criticised and not the procedure itself. Once you are criticising the outcome the cops are automatically blameless, they didn't have the hindsight.

Trust me, it shocks me just the same when the victim is an adult.

(27-11-2014 04:13 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  1) Even a 12 year old should know that that is a stupid thing to do. Hell the six year-olds I work with would know better than that.

2) Of course they have to be prepared to shoot anyone who is a threat. What do you expect them to do if they receive a report of a 12 year old shooting up a school? Sit outside and listen to the massacre whilst waiting for them to get bored?

3) The cops didn't know he was 12. From what they radioed they were under the impression he was about 20. Cops can hardly be expected to stop and ask every dangerous suspect they face for age identification before they decide what force to use.

1) Really? We're gonna blame a kid for not knowing that it was dangerous to do that?

2) No, they have to be prepared to stop any dangerous person without threatening his life. Just because they have guns it doesn't mean they have a say in who lives and who dies.

3) Even if it was hard to tell his age, it is still stupid to pull up so close to an armed person.

Oh, and sorry for not knowing the details of the case, I haven't had the time to read everything about it.

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27-11-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:21 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  If you pull up and someone is literally reaching for what you believe to be a weapon though then those options go out of the window.

Why did they pull up so close to an armed person anyway?

(27-11-2014 04:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Tbh though, these situations happen all the time (cops get report of idiot with weapon, turn up, shoot uncooperative idiot who's a potential threat) and no-one has any issue with it. The only difference here is the idiot's age, and the fact that the weapon turned out to be fake. If that is part of the reasoning then it is the outcome that is being criticised and not the procedure itself. Once you are criticising the outcome the cops are automatically blameless, they didn't have the hindsight.

Trust me, it shocks me just the same when the victim is an adult.

(27-11-2014 04:13 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  1) Even a 12 year old should know that that is a stupid thing to do. Hell the six year-olds I work with would know better than that.

2) Of course they have to be prepared to shoot anyone who is a threat. What do you expect them to do if they receive a report of a 12 year old shooting up a school? Sit outside and listen to the massacre whilst waiting for them to get bored?

3) The cops didn't know he was 12. From what they radioed they were under the impression he was about 20. Cops can hardly be expected to stop and ask every dangerous suspect they face for age identification before they decide what force to use.

1) Really? We're gonna blame a kid for not knowing that it was dangerous to do that?

2) No, they have to be prepared to stop any dangerous person without threatening his life. Just because they have guns it doesn't mean they have a say in who lives and who dies.

3) Even if it was hard to tell his age, it is still stupid to pull up so close to an armed person.

Oh, and sorry for not knowing the details of the case, I haven't had the time to read everything about it.

I'm thinking how Nurse's hubby cop would have responded to that scene. Kid would still be alive.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-11-2014, 04:29 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 01:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 11:12 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Perhaps we should take away all the police's weapons, arm them with hugs, and leave anyone who won't be placated by a hug free to do as they please?

Sounds like you're describing your bobbies. How many deaths in England from a bobby shooting someone? In the last 3 years, zero. In the last 10 years, 23. Why do you think that is? 'CAUSE YOUR COPS DON'T CARRY GUNS!

Not sure you're particularly qualified to comment on this given those statistics.

The gun situation is a tad different in the US compared to England.
Different situations require different responses (such as not arming or arming Police officers).

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27-11-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
Quote:1) Really? We're gonna blame a kid for not knowing that it was dangerous to do that?
Yes. My five year old knows that running out in the street, pointing a toy gun at someone, touching daddy's guns, opening the knife drawer, and trying to put something in the electrical socket are punishable by spanking.

I'm aware I am biased for multiple reasons - for starters, my husband is a cop. Also, because there was a 12 year old in my area that shot and killed another 12 year old at school a few years ago - he walked up to him in the hallway, held the gun to the back of the victim's head, and pulled the trigger. They were in a "gang" and the victim wanted out - their rule was no one leaves but through death, so he was murdered in premeditated cold blood. The shooter was a doctor's son, the victim was a black male. The shooter recently tried to flee the country since he had dual citizenship with Pakistan - parents got arrested and charged with obstruction of justice and aiding a fugitive, among other things.

Edit to add: My son can tell you the why's for the above rules. And I've never had to spank him for it.

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27-11-2014, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2014 04:49 PM by undergroundp.)
RE: 12 Year Old Fatally Shot by Police (in Ohio)
(27-11-2014 04:34 PM)Nurse Wrote:  
Quote:1) Really? We're gonna blame a kid for not knowing that it was dangerous to do that?
Yes. My five year old knows that running out in the street, pointing a toy gun at someone, touching daddy's guns, opening the knife drawer, and trying to put something in the electrical socket are punishable by spanking.

I suppose, then, it would be fair to say "It was all his fault!" if a kid decides to climb a tree and falls to his death or drinks something poisonous Consider

EDIT
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that just because it was a kid it was all the cop's fault. It's just that kids are expected to be reckless and ignorant (and that is why they are protected by the law) and an adult cop should have been prepared for a situation like this.

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