13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
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10-02-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Quote:1. This is a counter argument to those who say most scientists believe in god. Which they do not.
That's valid, but I've seen atheists using it to make atheism seem more "scientific" and smart. What I'm saying is that it's not valid to say most scientists are atheists just to make atheism seem more credible during the debate.
Quote:2. I do not really know anyone who uses that as an argument.
I've seen a lot of atheists using the "atheists are smarter" card.
Quote:3. Wrong, this is a valid argument. It is the argument against the infallible bible that is filled with only goodness, love and light and justice. We need this argument more than any other to show them they are wrong.
In this case it is valid. But if the topic is "this religion is right" then the fact it is immoral is not relevant
Quote:4. everyone does this, so don't they. Get over it. Its just normal.
I do that myself sometimes. I'm just saying that we shouldn't do it, and theists shouldn't assume reasons why we don't believe since they're not universal.
Quote:5. Babies are not amoral. Your argument here is weak. You clearly do not understand why we use that as an argument. It is to demonstrate what an atheist actually is and what the neutral position of believing something is, as well as to debunk "you were born a christian" fallacy.
Actually I've only heard this argument being used to prove that babies are atheists therefore atheism is right because religion results in indoctrination. If it's "you are born a Christian" then I think it's valid. As for being neutral that depends on the difference between gnostic and agnostic
Quote:6. Morality is Objective to evolution. Everything else that shapes what we call morality is just ethics build on the objective evolution of our species as a social species.
Prove it
Quote:7. This argument is NOT meaningless, it has total validity in its use. The use is to help theists understand why we reject their god by showing them why they reject all of the others.
I still think it is bullshit and a scape mechanism to not debate theists. Different religions or gods require different critiques, using that argument and settle the debate is pure laziness. Equating atheists with theists is illogical because we are different like I said. Theists don't seem themselves really as atheists to other gods, but as rival theists, not to mention theists think their god is right and we don't
Quote:8. Personal attacks I agree on to an extent. There are just a few people out there that I feel deserve it. Not because they are bad, but because for some, mocking them into oblivion is our only way of weakening them and eventually getting rid of them forever. Like creationists.
I totally agree. It's bad. But I do it. It's fun
Quote:10. I have never heard that argument being used to throw out the god hypothosis. Are you sure you have? I swear, some of this I have no idea where it is coming from.
I've heard it being used to make atheism seem better than religion and therefore it will look more right. It is a way to discredit religion
Quote:11. I don't really know many people out there who look at the world so black and white like that. No comment on this one.
This is the one I've heard the most. The typical argument of "Religion causes suicide bombings" V "Atheism causes critical thinking" is an example of 2 extremes. People have the habit of doing this with any topic - Creating a false dichotomy is easy and makes you seem right, but lumping all believers into the same category of belief is not wise because I've met people with different beliefs that used different arguments and believe different things

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-02-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(10-02-2015 07:56 AM)Blackout Wrote:  I am making these arguments for the case of god - None of them proves the god hypothesis is irrational. I said and if you read it you'll notice that I said we can use these arguments in other circumstances. But using them to make atheism seem smarter or better is dishonest

Except for the small detail that atheism is smarter and better. Drinking Beverage

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10-02-2015, 08:16 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(10-02-2015 08:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-02-2015 07:56 AM)Blackout Wrote:  I am making these arguments for the case of god - None of them proves the god hypothesis is irrational. I said and if you read it you'll notice that I said we can use these arguments in other circumstances. But using them to make atheism seem smarter or better is dishonest

Except for the small detail that atheism is smarter and better. Drinking Beverage

Atheism is the only rational position, I wouldn't use the word smarter because it doesn't take a lot of intelligence and thinking to be an atheist. I have met to many asshole atheists to think we are actually better.

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10-02-2015, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2015 08:25 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Quote:1. This is a counter argument to those who say most scientists believe in god. Which they do not.
Quote:What I'm saying is that it's not valid to say most scientists are atheists just to make atheism seem more credible during the debate.

It's perfectly valid to use this argument. The entire enterprise of "proof" (by this or that), "intelligent design" etc etc are attempts to link religious belief with the scientific method. Christianity (at least) preaches that "faith is a gift of god", (and exempts themselves from rationality), ("leap of faith") then turns around on a dime, and try to demonstrate it is somehow rational.

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10-02-2015, 08:19 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
I still don't understand how it is valid to appeal to authority. The theist could as well use the similar argument that "Most people in the world believe in god, therefore it means something". It is also an argument based on an appeal to the majority - I don't appeal to scientists unless I'm quoting to support directly one of my points; if most scientists were theists I don't think it would make atheism less credible

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-02-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
I have this big ol' well crafted logical rebuttal to your arguments; ready?

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10-02-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(10-02-2015 08:24 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I have this big ol' well crafted logical rebuttal to your arguments; ready?

Poopyhead. Big Grin

That works only when one has achieved "enlightenment" and gets that you are a prophet. Rolleyes

The fact that 85 % of the National Academy of Science are atheists, or non-believers, in an environment when it's perfectly commonplace for theists to think they can and should be discussing the Big Bang and all sorts of things that ONLY science has discovered, is perfectly reasonable as a "background" (environment) argument along with other specific ones. The scientific worldview IS the world we live in now, no longer the age of magic and miracles. It "sets the stage". How many times do we see arguments about abiogenesis as support for the gods ? It implies a discussion of science is valid in this arena. It perfectly fine to throw that back at them.

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10-02-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(09-02-2015 08:38 PM)Blackout Wrote:  3 - God/religion is evil, immoral, harmful and bad because of (insert a verse from the holy book, a bad action practised by a religious person or institution like the inquisition, etc.) ---> The reasons we should dismiss and criticize religion are many, but religion or god are not wrong/false/don't exist just because they are evil and bad. This is, at most, a reason to be against god and religion, but as far as I know, god could exist and be an evil being. I think this is a truthful statement, but it's not an argument to prove atheism is a better option than theism

I get what you are trying to say here - just because a god may be evil doesn't mean that such a god doesn't exist. Agreed (although I would argue about the "god" label).

However, that's as far as I agree. I believe the outright evil that is what many religions are and the damage and other negative consequences that comes from the rest of them is the single greatest reason to make a point of atheism at all. So, while I won't argue that evil gods and religions mean no gods exist, I certainly will argue that we are better off without them and there is no other reason to believe in them anyway.

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10-02-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Impulse yeah I agree, if you're arguing for anti-theism as the opposition to god (whether or not he exists) then this argument is great. It becomes a little complicated because of moral relativism but we can work around it - There's some things in society that create an inter-subjective morality, particularly acts associated with pain and suffering

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11-02-2015, 12:00 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(10-02-2015 08:17 PM)Blackout Wrote:  Impulse yeah I agree, if you're arguing for anti-theism as the opposition to god (whether or not he exists) then this argument is great. It becomes a little complicated because of moral relativism but we can work around it - There's some things in society that create an inter-subjective morality, particularly acts associated with pain and suffering

This doesn't hold relatively to what the atheist may or may not think about morality. It's not valid to the atheists positions if their view of morality isn't matched to yours in this instance.

You're not complaining about the atheist/theist debates here but what positions people have on morality then.

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