13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
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11-02-2015, 12:17 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(10-02-2015 08:08 AM)Blackout Wrote:  6. Morality is Objective to evolution. Everything else that shapes what we call morality is just ethics build on the objective evolution of our species as a social species.
Quote:Prove it

OK! So we have already observed other animals that have formed families and communities! Monkeys, Apes, Dolphins, Crocodiles, birds of every kind, some kinds of fish, Wolves, some large cats, and many others all have families and pack units or flock together.

In order to have a family of a mother, father and a child or a parent and a child, you need to have a creature capable of of emotion and attachment. Having evolved a sense of attachment means that due to the completely random evolutionary traits, somehow a very long time ago the trait that was a defect in the brain, a lot like a mental disorder happened. This mental disorder came in the form of a parental animal taking care of its young after it was hatched instead of leaving it to die after it was born because at this point, species had evolved where it was complex enough to not be self sustainable the movement it was born.

This "parent" took care of its young out of this new Mental disorder called an emotional attachment to its offspring. This increased the survivability of the species and when that child grew up, the experience it had with its parent imprinted on it like how a mother hen is imprinted on its hatching. When it gave birth, it passed on the mental disorder genes to its young and taught its young to raise its young until the mental disorder was no long a disorder but a necessary means for the species to survive easier and much longer.

Eventually this species would figure out that if its family lived with and worked together with other families, they would have a much easier time living together. These are the building blocks of morality. If a species wan tonly mass murders its own kind, it soon finds itself completely out of mating partners. Not only that but it's "emotions" kick in and it would realize what it is doing is wrong.

That is why packs, flocks, herds etc of animals exist. Because they have evolved with emotions, evolved to figure out that hanging with each other makes for a longer and happier life. Not to mention that fending off predators is much easier in groups and while one or two may fall, the group as a whole is still there.

Having emotions, NOT killing each other for absolutely no reason what so ever until the entire species is genocides without any consideration for the future of the species and forming communities like what we did, monkeys do and THOUSANDS of social species do is a REALLY good way to make the species survive which as a biological entity, is pretty much encoded on us as our prime objective outside of our own personal survival.

Stealing is wrong because it triggers a primitive part of our brain. Even though we do not need whatever it is to survive, stealing is wrong because it triggers the part of our brain that tells us that we NEED it to survive. We cannot survive without it. It is a lot like how a long time ago, the only thing to steal is food and warmth from others which is what we did and with violence to boot.

Even if we do not need it, it still triggers those areas of our brain as we need it as a part of our daily lives. It makes us feel really really terrible when that important thing is stolen and our sense of morality that has been encoded on us by evolution tells us that stealing is wrong. Although, this is a lesson that we do not fully understand until we have something important stolen from us and we can reflect on it to understand why we do not like the feeling of theres take our stuff.


There we go! I just proved it. Morality is Objective to our evolutionary process and everything else that is more complex outside of these few simple concepts is ethics. Not morality as ethics is based on the community collective rather than the individual.


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11-02-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Quote:OK! So we have already observed other animals that have formed families and communities! Monkeys, Apes, Dolphins, Crocodiles, birds of every kind, some kinds of fish, Wolves, some large cats, and many others all have families and pack units or flock together.
I don't like this premise because it is based on comparison between species that are not the same. Even the comparison between monkeys and humans is not very reasonable because we are very ahead of other primates
Quote:In order to have a family of a mother, father and a child or a parent and a child, you need to have a creature capable of of emotion and attachment. Having evolved a sense of attachment means that due to the completely random evolutionary traits, somehow a very long time ago the trait that was a defect in the brain, a lot like a mental disorder happened. This mental disorder came in the form of a parental animal taking care of its young after it was hatched instead of leaving it to die after it was born because at this point, species had evolved where it was complex enough to not be self sustainable the movement it was born.
- Not everyone wants a family
- Not everyone can feel empathy, emotions or attachment (I'm thinking about psychopaths)
- What the hell does this have to do with morality? This is simply a biological behaviour of species' preservation
Quote:This "parent" took care of its young out of this new Mental disorder called an emotional attachment to its offspring. This increased the survivability of the species and when that child grew up, the experience it had with its parent imprinted on it like how a mother hen is imprinted on its hatching. When it gave birth, it passed on the mental disorder genes to its young and taught its young to raise its young until the mental disorder was no long a disorder but a necessary means for the species to survive easier and much longer.
Do you have any proof of this mental disorder?
Quote:Eventually this species would figure out that if its family lived with and worked together with other families, they would have a much easier time living together. These are the building blocks of morality. If a species wan tonly mass murders its own kind, it soon finds itself completely out of mating partners. Not only that but it's "emotions" kick in and it would realize what it is doing is wrong.
This isn't morality, it's strategical thinking, it's rationality. Logically killing other people endangers our survival, but it doesn't need to be related to morality. For me it is merely pragmatism and methodical planning
Quote:That is why packs, flocks, herds etc of animals exist. Because they have evolved with emotions, evolved to figure out that hanging with each other makes for a longer and happier life. Not to mention that fending off predators is much easier in groups and while one or two may fall, the group as a whole is still there.
This is merely biology, not morality.
Quote:Having emotions, NOT killing each other for absolutely no reason what so ever until the entire species is genocides without any consideration for the future of the species and forming communities like what we did, monkeys do and THOUSANDS of social species do is a REALLY good way to make the species survive which as a biological entity, is pretty much encoded on us as our prime objective outside of our own personal survival.
This isn't morality, it's survival instinct
Quote:Stealing is wrong because it triggers a primitive part of our brain. Even though we do not need whatever it is to survive, stealing is wrong because it triggers the part of our brain that tells us that we NEED it to survive. We cannot survive without it. It is a lot like how a long time ago, the only thing to steal is food and warmth from others which is what we did and with violence to boot.
Actually no, a lot of thieves rationalize their behaviour very well and plan ahead. They genuinely see theft as a legitimate way of life and see laws as something stupid created by stupid people
Quote:Even if we do not need it, it still triggers those areas of our brain as we need it as a part of our daily lives. It makes us feel really really terrible when that important thing is stolen and our sense of morality that has been encoded on us by evolution tells us that stealing is wrong. Although, this is a lesson that we do not fully understand until we have something important stolen from us and we can reflect on it to understand why we do not like the feeling of theres take our stuff.
Again emotions are not necessarily linked to morality. I don't know what morality has to do with this
Quote:There we go! I just proved it. Morality is Objective to our evolutionary process and everything else that is more complex outside of these few simple concepts is ethics. Not morality as ethics is based on the community collective rather than the individual.
No you didn't, you are confusing evolutionary traits and our progress as a species with morality. I have a few questions for you:
- How do you explain that some people share completely different moral values? Let's give an example, prostitution is seen by some as a legal and proper activity but most society considers it immoral
- Why are you comparing our survival methodology with morality? The reason we don't kill other members of the same species might not be because of morality, it is because it triggers conflicts and harms our family as well - Therefore it takes away peace and prevents us from leading our lives and reproducing. Animals in other habitats are incapable of morality but they can be at peace with other species without getting into physical conflict - It's strategic, not moral.
- Try this experiment - Raise two people in different families. Do you think their moral values would be similar or different?

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-02-2015, 02:54 PM
13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Do you have a list of arguments you say atheists should use?
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12-02-2015, 02:58 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Everything that lowers the possibility of god existing

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-02-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(12-02-2015 02:58 PM)Blackout Wrote:  Everything that lowers the possibility of god existing

So, most of what you just said not to use then.


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13-02-2015, 06:46 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
How the hell is god less likely to exist just because there's a correlation between atheism and intelligence, because scientists are atheists, or because of personal insults? None of those things prove god doesn't exist/is less likely to exist. Something like "our group is smarter" is meant to discredit only.

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-02-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(13-02-2015 06:46 PM)Blackout Wrote:  How the hell is god less likely to exist just because there's a correlation between atheism and intelligence, because scientists are atheists, or because of personal insults? None of those things prove god doesn't exist/is less likely to exist. Something like "our group is smarter" is meant to discredit only.

The word does not have the same definition as "all" my friend.


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14-02-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(12-02-2015 02:58 PM)Blackout Wrote:  Everything that lowers the possibility of god existing

You should understand people come to learn and realizations through many ways. Just thinking direct responses on possibility or facts is the best approach is foolish to considering how humans grow via thinking upon ideas.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-02-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
Most - if not ALL - of these arguments are used in a specific context, and never do I use (nor have I seen anyone else use) them to argue that gods don't exist.

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14-02-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: 13 arguments atheists shouldn't use
(13-02-2015 06:46 PM)Blackout Wrote:  How the hell is god less likely to exist just because there's a correlation between atheism and intelligence, because scientists are atheists, or because of personal insults? None of those things prove god doesn't exist/is less likely to exist. Something like "our group is smarter" is meant to discredit only.

I think it has to do with mental credibility.
Is a particular story more or less likely to be true when you examine the people who believe it and their reasons for believing it.

Then you examine the people who don't believe the story.

When you can connect the dots between intelligent people who use critical thinking as part of their job and non belief, you get a picture of what it's like to NOT be gullible.

There is a certain mental credibility among non gullible people who require evidence to back up their work.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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