2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
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08-09-2015, 01:33 PM
2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
From David to Jonathan:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
" - 2 Samuel 1:26

Christians say that kind of love is "Christian Love". But there were no "christians" in the OT.

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08-09-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 01:33 PM)KVron Wrote:  From David to Jonathan:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
" - 2 Samuel 1:26

Christians say that kind of love is "Christian Love". But there were no "christians" in the OT.

The counter argument to that is this Old testament "wonderful love" and Christian Love are the same kind of love.....they are equivalent.

Do any Christians take the position that only Christians can engage in "Christian Love"?
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08-09-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 01:33 PM)KVron Wrote:  From David to Jonathan:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
" - 2 Samuel 1:26

Christians say that kind of love is "Christian Love". But there were no "christians" in the OT.

It depends on which type of Christian you ask. Some liberal Christians would say it is referring to the romantic love between two men. Some conservatives would say absolutely not. Just another example in the Bible where something is left open to the interpreter.

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08-09-2015, 02:16 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
This is an extremely interesting story. Christians and apologists are easy to dismiss this as "christian love" but more recent studies from Hebrew scholars like Saul Olyan and Susan Akerman have shown that it is very plausible this could be a love affair.

Akerman wrote a book about it published by Columbia University Press called "When Heroes Love." She compares the story to that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, of ancient male intimacy. Many scholars now believe that people in antiquity did not consider their relationships as an either / or (regarding homosexuality / heterosexuality). Men would often have sex with both males and females. The Greeks often had homosexual relationships with young boys as well as their wives, something that would be looked at as horrible in today's culture. In Greece, male-to-male love was very highly thought of.

On the other hand I have also heard that the ancients generally believed that a man should not be penetrated by another man—that would be to make him a woman. Aristotle spells out for Greeks just what men can and cannot do in a legitimate love-relationship. David and Jonathan cry, kiss, share many intimate moments. We'll never REALLY know what kind of relationship this was but there seems to be well argued hypotheses supporting it was about two men in love, regardless of whether that included sexual intercourse or not.

Here's the link to Akerman's book: When Heroes Love

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08-09-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 01:33 PM)KVron Wrote:  From David to Jonathan:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
" - 2 Samuel 1:26

Christians say that kind of love is "Christian Love". But there were no "christians" in the OT.
Christian love or love of Christ is something that any person can experience. Even an atheist. This is exactly what happened to me - former atheist experienced love of Christ and she KNEW that Christ lives.
Love of Christ is greater than love of any man can give me/or any woman.

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08-09-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 03:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 01:33 PM)KVron Wrote:  From David to Jonathan:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
" - 2 Samuel 1:26

Christians say that kind of love is "Christian Love". But there were no "christians" in the OT.
Christian love or love of Christ is something that any person can experience. Even an atheist. This is exactly what happened to me - former atheist experienced love of Christ and she KNEW that Christ lives.
Love of Christ is greater than love of any man can give me/or any woman.

What?? My hand has given me much more love than Christ.

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08-09-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 03:29 PM)KVron Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 03:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  Christian love or love of Christ is something that any person can experience. Even an atheist. This is exactly what happened to me - former atheist experienced love of Christ and she KNEW that Christ lives.
Love of Christ is greater than love of any man can give me/or any woman.

What?? My hand has given me much more love than Christ.
what is love of Christ?

English is my second language.
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08-09-2015, 03:53 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
David seems not ever to have worried too hard about whether something was forbidden. He takes the kingdom from his boss Saul, he orders a murder in order to take his friend's wife (Bathsheba?), and I think it's completely plausible and in character for David to have had a sexual relationship with Jonathan, even if those relationships were frowned on at the time.
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08-09-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 03:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 01:33 PM)KVron Wrote:  From David to Jonathan:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
" - 2 Samuel 1:26

Christians say that kind of love is "Christian Love". But there were no "christians" in the OT.
Christian love or love of Christ is something that any person can experience. Even an atheist. This is exactly what happened to me - former atheist experienced love of Christ and she KNEW that Christ lives.
Love of Christ is greater than love of any man can give me/or any woman.

Then in what context are you an atheist when you experience the christian love? Wouldn't it be that anyone "eventually" can become a christian therefore then be recieving said christian love?

Honestly you people say this like it's a normal thing. I've NEVER heard the phrase "christian love" ever... at all. I didn't know this was some termonolgy used.

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08-09-2015, 04:39 PM
RE: 2 Samuel 1:26 - an homosexual reference?
(08-09-2015 03:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Then in what context are you an atheist when you experience the christian love? Wouldn't it be that anyone "eventually" can become a christian therefore then be recieving said christian love?
Before I had a revelation from God I was an atheist. Faith, religions was for un-educated or old people in my strong opinion. The moment God gave me revelation I KNEW: Christ is real, He lives. And exactly at that moment I felt His love. Love of Christ. This love is greater than love of men/women can give.

(08-09-2015 03:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Honestly you people say this like it's a normal thing. I've NEVER heard the phrase "christian love" ever... at all. I didn't know this was some termonolgy used.
I do not say "Christian love", I say "love of Christ"

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