2 questions to ask a theist.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-09-2012, 09:30 AM
2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 08:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-09-2012 08:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  Hmmm, I'd call that an overstatement.

We've been through this, (not with you, however). Theists use the term with reference to individual ("sinful" acts"). Neuro-science HAS proven that the decision process to perform individual acts is not, (100%) present to human consciousness. That is different from long-term, considered intellectual positions. Theists, (who actually know something about their own systems), assert that a sinful act requires full knowledge and consent. That would exempt an honest "disbelief". This is just another instance of someone who knows nothing about their own system, (and Neuro-science).

Dammit. I hate when I agree with Chas. If free will was thoroughly debunked it would no longer be a discussion. You can't just dismiss a thought because you don't believe it. Besides, it's a non issue when you introduce the Sovereignty of God.
Try again, Buckmeister. I know you can do better than this!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Caff -

1)What do you believe? 2) Why do you believe it?


1. I believe in God (as I am a Chrisitans). Not sure if you are looking for a long list, so I will just keep it short. I believe in Jesus, what he taught, what he did. I also believe in absolutes, such as morality. Etc.
2. As for why do I believe it. Many reasons, but again I’ll keep it short.
a. For one – through personal experience, I have come to find that the Bible and Jesus’ teachings speak to many truths in life.
b. I have had personal experiences with God, via prayer, situations and other people.
c. I believe in love, and that Jesus shows us the way to that ultimate love and how we are to love one another – and I find this to be true in that it does bring a life that is unknown prior to it.
d. I learn day by day my short comings, my failings as a loving person. As I believe one can’t grow, if one doesn’t discover their errors and shortcomings.
e. Through learning my shortcomings, I learn to love other more fully and freely and again, this shows me a life far better than one lived for myself. I am shown, through study and application, that a life lived for others and loving others is truly a life worth living and how things are truly to be.
f. I learn that I too have blame to share in the state of affairs in the world. Rather than pointing a finger, I learn to lend a hand.
g. I am shown that it’s heart and soul that truly matter. Not the bank account, not a persons status in life, or their beliefs, or my beliefs – but where my heart and soul are. Either they are with God in love, or they are not (sin). One way, while seeming good TO ME, is really a death of sorts – slow enough to barely notice, but strong enough to be a continual issue.

Now, certainly I don’t expect this list to change your mind about anything. But I answered, so there you go.

2. Is God's method of recruitment (coercion/implicit blackmail) a fair and moral way to present a choice?

One, you are making an assertion that there are “fair and moral ways” – to which I will agree with you. Two, your characterization of the choice is incorrect.

To further illustrate my second point, I would suggest you read the parable of the prodigal son. After you have read it, I will show you how your perception that there is coercion (rather than hopefulness and wanting) and blackmail (rather than outcome from choice) is incorrect. So, let me know when you have read the parable and we can get into it further.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 10:09 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2012 10:17 AM by caffeinesoul.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 09:50 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Now, certainly I don’t expect this list to change your mind about anything. But I answered, so there you go.

I wanted a better understanding of your position so that I could get a good idea of how you think. Thanks for answering. One particular detail is missing, if you wouldn't mind: which sect? Catholic/Anglican/Puritan/Calvinist/Greek Orthodox/Jews For Jesus/Iehova's Witness/Mormon/WBC etc.

EDIT: I feel I should explain my position, too. Atheist - ex-Christian; I don't think absolute morality exists and I came to my position through research of various religions/scientific discoveries/skeptical arguments. I am also a materialist.


(26-09-2012 09:50 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  2. Is God's method of recruitment (coercion/implicit blackmail) a fair and moral way to present a choice?

One, you are making an assertion that there are “fair and moral ways” – to which I will agree with you. Two, your characterization of the choice is incorrect.

To further illustrate my second point, I would suggest you read the parable of the prodigal son. After you have read it, I will show you how your perception that there is coercion (rather than hopefulness and wanting) and blackmail (rather than outcome from choice) is incorrect. So, let me know when you have read the parable and we can get into it further.

Read it, go ahead.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 10:32 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 09:50 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  One, you are making an assertion that there are “fair and moral ways” – to which I will agree with you. Two, your characterization of the choice is incorrect.

Oh, to clarify something, I meant by your standards of morality. I would also argue that there are fair and unfair methods of presenting a choice, but only according to my subjective take on morality. I wanted to know how you felt about your God's recruitment method.

I'm aware that you're going to get into that with the prodigal son thing. Just clarifying.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 10:54 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Caff -

I grew up in a Lutheran household, however, currently I would just say I'm Protestant. I don't "belong" to a church. I actually listen to several different pastors and teachers from several denominations.

okay, onto the prodigal son. Do you find anywhere in the parable examples of blackmail or coersion?

If so, by whom?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 11:13 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 09:50 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Caff -

1)What do you believe? 2) Why do you believe it?


1. I believe in God (as I am a Chrisitans). Not sure if you are looking for a long list, so I will just keep it short. I believe in Jesus, what he taught, what he did. I also believe in absolutes, such as morality. Etc.
2. As for why do I believe it. Many reasons, but again I’ll keep it short.
a. For one – through personal experience, I have come to find that the Bible and Jesus’ teachings speak to many truths in life.
b. I have had personal experiences with God, via prayer, situations and other people.
c. I believe in love, and that Jesus shows us the way to that ultimate love and how we are to love one another – and I find this to be true in that it does bring a life that is unknown prior to it.
d. I learn day by day my short comings, my failings as a loving person. As I believe one can’t grow, if one doesn’t discover their errors and shortcomings.
e. Through learning my shortcomings, I learn to love other more fully and freely and again, this shows me a life far better than one lived for myself. I am shown, through study and application, that a life lived for others and loving others is truly a life worth living and how things are truly to be.
f. I learn that I too have blame to share in the state of affairs in the world. Rather than pointing a finger, I learn to lend a hand.
g. I am shown that it’s heart and soul that truly matter. Not the bank account, not a persons status in life, or their beliefs, or my beliefs – but where my heart and soul are. Either they are with God in love, or they are not (sin). One way, while seeming good TO ME, is really a death of sorts – slow enough to barely notice, but strong enough to be a continual issue.
You have nothing but anecdotal experience and yet you claim that there's evidence for god? Consider

Oh, and you still have to respond to my latest post.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 11:18 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
V -

"Oh, and you still have to respond to my latest post."

I have to? Really?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Idiot for Christ's post
26-09-2012, 11:23 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
V -

Oh, I just have to include this for you re: miracles.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national...-1.1167774

anyhow...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-09-2012, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2012 02:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 09:30 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(26-09-2012 08:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We've been through this, (not with you, however). Theists use the term with reference to individual ("sinful" acts"). Neuro-science HAS proven that the decision process to perform individual acts is not, (100%) present to human consciousness. That is different from long-term, considered intellectual positions. Theists, (who actually know something about their own systems), assert that a sinful act requires full knowledge and consent. That would exempt an honest "disbelief". This is just another instance of someone who knows nothing about their own system, (and Neuro-science).

Dammit. I hate when I agree with Chas. If free will was thoroughly debunked it would no longer be a discussion. You can't just dismiss a thought because you don't believe it. Besides, it's a non issue when you introduce the Sovereignty of God.
Try again, Buckmeister. I know you can do better than this!

Creationism is thoroughly debunked. It's still a discussion.

The Sovereignty of god(s) has nothing to do with Free Will, (unless one is a fundamentalist). Since I am exposed only to mainline non-fundie shit, I may be wrong about everything.

however....

Christian Theology has always, (despite what ignorant fundamentalists say today), maintained a fully LEGITIMATE, and honorable position for disbelief. "Many are called, but few are chosen", (Matthew 22:14), and "No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him", (John 6:44). They would not be saying that, if there were no "external" force, legitimately acting, or not acting, in order for the distinction to be made. So it's NOT a "rebellion" or "sinful" *choice", (non-belief), it's a LACK of action, on god(s) part, and that's what THEY say. Non-belief in their systems, is legitimate, and done in good faith, and is as deserving of respect, IN THEIR system as belief, as it reflects a choice of THEIR GOD.

The "free will" / sin paradigm is unexamined , and not thought through.
Human beings, unless they are insane, make rational choices, to the extent that they have the capacity to do that.

(Dr David Eagleman, among others, from Texas...see his videos, (YouTube) and TED talks), has demonstrated that what goes into a decision, is not 100 % "present" to consciousness, BEFORE the decision is made.

Humans, in good faith, make rational decisions. They, sometimes, make decisions, that, in retrospect, are not the best for their long term interests. However, AT THE TIME they are making them, they choose, IN GOOD FAITH, that which they have weighed, and decided, maximized their benefit(s), AT THAT TIME. It's done in good faith. The decisions are rationally made, IN GOOD FAITH, and the perception is, their interests are maximized. So there really is no "choice", as the MAXIMIZATION, would be the choice, BUT THAT'S not the choice. We all, only do what we think, at the moment maximizes our best interest. One who doesn't is not "sinful", but irrational, (and thus not responsible, as insane). Good faith is presumed, and the path or way is the only question. The path choice, is the one that maximizes the best interest. "Rebellion", bad faith, "sin", god's will, have NOTHING to do with the decision process. Humans who are irrational, are insane, and not responsible for their choices. So, "sin" is actually a distinction, without a difference.




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
26-09-2012, 11:50 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Long post inc, may not be up for a while. Apologies for slow response.

EDIT: It's not a rant. I feel I should mention that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: