2 questions to ask a theist.
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26-09-2012, 12:05 PM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2012 12:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 09:50 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  1. I believe in God (as I am a Chrisitans). Not sure if you are looking for a long list, so I will just keep it short. I believe in Jesus, what he taught, what he did. I also believe in absolutes, such as morality. Etc.
2. As for why do I believe it. Many reasons, but again I’ll keep it short.
a. For one – through personal experience, I have come to find that the Bible and Jesus’ teachings speak to many truths in life.
b. I have had personal experiences with God, via prayer, situations and other people.
c. I believe in love, and that Jesus shows us the way to that ultimate love and how we are to love one another – and I find this to be true in that it does bring a life that is unknown prior to it.
d. I learn day by day my short comings, my failings as a loving person. As I believe one can’t grow, if one doesn’t discover their errors and shortcomings.
e. Through learning my shortcomings, I learn to love other more fully and freely and again, this shows me a life far better than one lived for myself. I am shown, through study and application, that a life lived for others and loving others is truly a life worth living and how things are truly to be.
f. I learn that I too have blame to share in the state of affairs in the world. Rather than pointing a finger, I learn to lend a hand.
g. I am shown that it’s heart and soul that truly matter. Not the bank account, not a persons status in life, or their beliefs, or my beliefs – but where my heart and soul are. Either they are with God in love, or they are not (sin). One way, while seeming good TO ME, is really a death of sorts – slow enough to barely notice, but strong enough to be a continual issue.

Now, certainly I don’t expect this list to change your mind about anything. But I answered, so there you go.

2. Is God's method of recruitment (coercion/implicit blackmail) a fair and moral way to present a choice?

One, you are making an assertion that there are “fair and moral ways” – to which I will agree with you. Two, your characterization of the choice is incorrect.

To further illustrate my second point, I would suggest you read the parable of the prodigal son. After you have read it, I will show you how your perception that there is coercion (rather than hopefulness and wanting) and blackmail (rather than outcome from choice) is incorrect. So, let me know when you have read the parable and we can get into it further.

So you believe in Yahweh, the god of the armies...the Christian god ? The one that the Hebrews took from the Sumerian myth system ?
Many wise teachers and books speak to our lives, and you don't believe in them. So you have a standard, you have not consistently maintained.
What you perceive as experiences of god(s), *could* be something else. You have no standard established for yourself, as to what is or is not the origins of a "feeling". Are all your feelings about god(s) ? If you have one, let's hear it.
Everyone "believes in love", (as opposed to your evil OT god), so that can't be why you're a Christian.
The rest of the altruistic stuff, while great, has nothing to do with faith. There are many good people who do not believe, (and many bad ones who do).

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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26-09-2012, 12:28 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 11:23 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  V -

Oh, I just have to include this for you re: miracles.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national...-1.1167774

anyhow...

“It just truly is a medical miracle,” his mother, Margie Crowe, said. “Excellent medical care and, I think, the power of prayer.”

The god of the gaps appears again. They don't know how it happened = miracle. 300 years ago, antibiotics would have been called a miracle. Here's what a Christian must believe when they claim a miracle:

1. God chose to heal you rather then prevent you from getting sick in the first place.
2. God answered your personal prayers... this time.
3. God chose not to heal thousands of other suffering humans, including children, the oppressed, and his faithful servants, for 'mysterious' reasons that are part of his 'plan.'
4. When miracles happen to non-believers, or believers of other gods, it is actually your god.

How is it that you can apply reason and logic to the existence of Santa Clause, but not god and the bible (I'm assuming you believe that man's recovery was a miracle)?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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26-09-2012, 01:16 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(25-09-2012 07:00 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Marco -

"It (logic) was created be humans like Aristoteles and other philosopers."

Huh, so logic didn't exist before Aristotele and other philosopher. before then, nothing made sense and illogic was everywhere...gotcha.

Yes pale, yu gotcha...

Thats the same thing to say, befor someone invented the bicycle, there where no tour de france.

Logic is to use your brain in a differnd way, then religios people do.
That why we invented it.
Because we were pissed off by selfish and arbitrary god's and King's.

We acually did it to build a civil-society, among equal beings, who lived there lifes in freedom and peace.

Thats dont work with OT or NT and especially not with the koran.

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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26-09-2012, 02:08 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 11:18 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  V -

"Oh, and you still have to respond to my latest post."

I have to? Really?
Yes, really. Unless of course, you want to be intellectually dishonest (which you have proven yourself to be so far anyway). Out of six comments on your arguments, you have picked out one, not even to refute it, but merely to highlight it.

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26-09-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 10:54 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  okay, onto the prodigal son. Do you find anywhere in the parable examples of blackmail or coersion?

If so, by whom?

Ah, that's where you're going with this. Time to get my Bibles.

Can you please tell me why you consider the position of the prodigal son and his father to be analogous to the positions of God and humans.

Here's why I consider the Parable of the Prodigal Son to be a faulty analogy:

Problem 1

-- The parable misrepresents God's and human-kind's positions --

The wasteful spending of the father's gift by the son is supposed to represent Adam and Eve's (or rather, man-kind's) fall from God's graces, right? But the father in the parable gifted his son with riches, whereas God didn't gift humans with knowledge of good and evil; God instead told Adam and Eve that they weren't allowed to eat from the tree. And when they did (almost inevitably), God punished them and their kind. Let's look at the difference in set-up between the fall of man-kind and the parable:


Genesis set-up:

• God, for some indiscernible reason, put a "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in the garden of Eden. He then forbid Adam and Eve from eating fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil".

• God made an evil, walking/flying, talking serpent and put it in the Garden of Eden. (source on the walking/flying thing - http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...-have-legs )

• Adam and Eve, not yet having eaten from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", couldn't have possibly known that disobeying God was a bad thing to do.

• The "father" is an all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipotent deity who would have to know that Adam and Eve would listen to the serpent - as well as simply knowing of the deceiving serpent's existence (entrapment, anyone?).


Parable set-up:

• The father granted his youngest son a share of his riches. He didn't try to keep it from his son.

• The father didn't create an evil, walking/flying, talking serpent that would likely lead his son astray.

• The son would have already known the difference between good and evil, being a descendant of another human, not the first human.

• The father is a human who may not have been able to see how his youngest son would waste his gift due to humans not being omnipotent or all-knowing.


See how the parable is a misrepresentation of the positions of both God and human-kind? There are a multitude of factors involved in the genesis fable, which aren't included in the parable. There is no way you can judge the actions of the prodigal son in the same way you can judge the actions of Adam and Eve. This leads me to my next problem:


Problem 2

-- The prodigal son can't accurately represent human-kind --

Adam and Eve are two people. It was them and only them who ate from the forbidden tree. I didn't. You didn't. Bucky Ball and Vosur didn't (you didn't, did you guys?). Nobody other than Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, so what's the rest of human-kind guilty of? Inherited knowledge of good and evil? But we don't have any control over that. There's no choice when developing in the womb, for us to opt out of knowing what good and evil are. So what sin have we committed, that the prodigal son could possibly represent?


Problem 3

-- The father can't accurately represent God/Jesus/that-whole-three-in-one-thing --

Aside from the obvious reason that the father in the parable isn't all-knowing, nor is he the creator of everything ever, the father in the parable behaves differently to God.

1) The father doesn't initially punish his son, as opposed to God who punished Adam and Eve (Genesis 4, verses 15 and onwards), and the rest of man-kind.
2) The father granted his son riches, as opposed to God who forbid the fruit of the tree in the garden of Eden.
3) The father didn't make the drought that caused the prodigal son to return, whereas God caused a lot worse due to human defiance, before eventually sending Himself down to earth to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to forgive us for something that He Himself was ultimately responsible for.


The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a twisting of the truth*, to me at least. If you want to say that God doesn't use coercion and implicit blackmail to recruit, by citing a parable Jesus gave (according to the Bible), you're going to have to straighten out my interpretation of the parable, or cite something else.


*Truth, according to the Bible.
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26-09-2012, 02:30 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Some beknighted heathen wandered off into the wilderness after daddy gave him his extra special camel, fell on hard times and came back home to a rapturous welcome.

Because this is true & written down in the Bible and is a direct parable for your obviously sinful life you should worship Mr Invisible. And by worship I mean spend your life devoted to the service of the said deity. Saying prayers. Battling unbelievers on the internet. Dragging your kids to church. Making snap life decisions based on what you feel God is wanting you to do. *Recruiting others*.

No thanks.
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26-09-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Caff-

Great post!

I'm sorry that I won't be able to post my reply until tomorrow AM or so, but I will.

Again, great post. I enjoyed your perspective.
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26-09-2012, 02:56 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
The Parable of The Prodigal Son was a reworking of the popular, (at the time),
Hymn of the Pearl, in Gnostic literature.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm

Jesus likely did not tell it as such. The authors of the Gospel of Thomas had it first, and the others picked it up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-09-2012, 07:27 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Idiot for Christ, since you are either unable or unwilling to continue our previous debate, how about we'll keep it simple?

The resurrection of Jesus is the most fundamental requirement for Christianity. It is of utmost importance that it really happened. Now, what evidence do you have to confirm the validity of the resurrection? If you can't provide any, why are you still a Christian?

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27-09-2012, 07:42 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(26-09-2012 09:30 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(26-09-2012 08:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We've been through this, (not with you, however). Theists use the term with reference to individual ("sinful" acts"). Neuro-science HAS proven that the decision process to perform individual acts is not, (100%) present to human consciousness. That is different from long-term, considered intellectual positions. Theists, (who actually know something about their own systems), assert that a sinful act requires full knowledge and consent. That would exempt an honest "disbelief". This is just another instance of someone who knows nothing about their own system, (and Neuro-science).

Dammit. I hate when I agree with Chas. If free will was thoroughly debunked it would no longer be a discussion. You can't just dismiss a thought because you don't believe it. Besides, it's a non issue when you introduce the Sovereignty of God.
Try again, Buckmeister. I know you can do better than this!

Then why do we debate about God, religion, evolution, and the Bible?

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