2 questions to ask a theist.
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27-09-2012, 10:13 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 08:16 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 07:47 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Okay, where to begin with your errors...

Let's start with the Gospel of Thomas - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas/

No "prodigal son" parable. However, perhaps you meant to imply that there was the parable of the Merchant and the Pearl. I suggest then you click on the commentary then - NOTHING to do with Prodigal Son: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/th...mas76.html

Okay, what about your link - which is from the ACTS of Thomas, NOT Gospel of Thomas which contains the Hymn of the Pearl of which YOU say is the basis for the Prodigal Son?

Acts of Thomas is dated: 200-250 AD
http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-boo...of-thomas/
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

The Gospel of Luke? 59-(at WORST)130. 130 still 70 YEARS before the earliest AOT.
http://www.harvardhouse.com/Luke_date-written.htm
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

If what you have present was even remotely true, it clearly is a miracle that Luke PRE-USED a story that hadn't been written yet as a basis for a parable in his account.

Yes, Gospel of Thomas is dated earlier - however, as I just showed it was NOT the basis for the Prodigal Son parable either.

So, please again, show us how the Hymn of the Pearl is the basis for the Prodigal Son?

I'll deal with this, but you conveniently forgot to reply to my other posts to you. And BTW the fact that the parable is in both, does not mean it CAME from one, to the other. It just means it was circulating.

Also ALL inspiration claims are obviously spurious, and Irenaeus cut down the number of circulating gospels (about 180 ++ ) to 4. Why ? He said there were 4 winds, and THAT was HIS reason. There was no "community validation" by the believers, in his actions. That PROVES, that whatever was or was not "inspired" as content and validated by communities, (which begs the question ... why were SO many communities using SO many gospels ?), became irrelevant, as Irenaeus, HIMSELF, who authored nothing, was the sole agent in the determination of the final 4, and CONTENT was not the determining criteria.

Well, as you know the four Gospels were more than prominent than when Irenaeus wrote of them around 176AD. Which would put Luke even earlier than the latest 180. Which puts it further than the ACTS of Thomas and the Pearl. Or didn't you know that?

And since you don't include dates in your claims, please finish this: the entire NT was canonized when?__________

Which was how long after Irenaeus writings?_________

Of the 180+ writings which (which I ALSO LINKED) ALL NT scholars actually know about and have compared or read, the four remain intact...why? because a even a laymans glance at the other writings show they don't fit.

IE Gospel of Thomas, which I linked...you want to make an argument that belongs in the Bible? I'd love to hear it.

This isn't new information you are presenting, but information that has been looked at, vetted, and put in it's proper place...unless you are possession of more knowledge than most Biblical scholars (atheist and otherwise).
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27-09-2012, 10:14 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 06:40 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 05:19 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  yeah, I can put running sentences together that get buried...

So if logic then exists - why?

Was it created? If so, by what or whom? ( earlier an argument was made that it WAS created)

If it wasn't created, how does it exist?

Yay, the transcendental argument! Haven't seen that one in a while.

My counter-argument: Why does logic require a creator? Demonstrate the need for logic to have a creator. "Something can't come from nothing" doesn't count, since that applies equally well to your own deity.


Careful, you are about to make my point!
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27-09-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 10:14 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 06:40 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Yay, the transcendental argument! Haven't seen that one in a while.

My counter-argument: Why does logic require a creator? Demonstrate the need for logic to have a creator. "Something can't come from nothing" doesn't count, since that applies equally well to your own deity.


Careful, you are about to make my point!

Make it for me, I'm lazy.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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27-09-2012, 10:27 PM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2012 12:50 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 10:13 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Well, as you know the four Gospels were more than prominent than when Irenaeus wrote of them around 176AD. Which would put Luke even earlier than the latest 180. Which puts it further than the ACTS of Thomas and the Pearl. Or didn't you know that?

Prove it. You have no way of knowing what was, or was not "prominent", in Irenaeus' day, and if he felt it was necessary to go to the trouble to suppress, it proves the others were at least used enough to cause trouble, by believing legitimate communities, who believed what they used, in good faith.

The canonization process was long and convoluted, (which also proves it was not "inspired") as your god would have made it obvious which was, or not, for real, and not left it up to NON-UNANIMOUS votes, in the councils. So if the writing was not inspired, what you mean is the canonization process was inspired, and all the "no" votes were "of the devil" ?

The 4 "remain intact" not because of "scholars", (as Dr. Elaine Pagels from Princeton has pointed out). They "remain intact", because of liturgical use, by people who know nothing about scholarship, AND there never has, and never will be a "re-examination" by anyone in religion, in a religious community. They would be fired, or booted out, and you know it.

Unless you produce the poll, and the data, do not use the "all scholars" bs. You have no way of knowing, if all you have ever taken is fundi classes.

"vetted and in it's proper place" is a false argument from authority, which you have provided no evidence for, and I just demonstrated that IF the decision, IN HIS OWN WORDS, had to do with 4 winds, and 4 columns, and NOT content, then no matter what was written, the process of exclusion, refutes inspiration of content.

I know what scholars are saying, and doing. It's one of my fields.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-09-2012, 11:49 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Idiot for Christ, what evidence do you have for the resurrection? (third time already)

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28-09-2012, 12:44 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 11:49 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Idiot for Christ, what evidence do you have for the resurrection? (third time already)

The bible duh.


No point asking theists about one particular point in the bible because all they got as fact is the bible.

Just ask them the obvious question:
What makes the bible fact?

Answer? Well, again, the only thing they got to answer that is the bible.
And because it's a circular argument it's faulty and hence wrong. But they can't see this, they will never see this, you should just stop wasting your time and let the whole theist thing die out as Atheist slowly gains popularity over the next 200-300 years.

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28-09-2012, 05:33 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
I'll get back on this thread/forum later. I won't be able to get on a computer for most the weekend (I can use my 3ds, but I'm certainly not typing up a response on that). Thanks for clearing things up a bit, still got some problems though.
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28-09-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 10:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 10:13 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Well, as you know the four Gospels were more than prominent than when Irenaeus wrote of them around 176AD. Which would put Luke even earlier than the latest 180. Which puts it further than the ACTS of Thomas and the Pearl. Or didn't you know that?

Prove it. You have no way of knowing what was, or was not "prominent", in Irenaeus' day, and if he felt it was necessary to go to the trouble to suppress, it proves the others were at least used enough to cause trouble, by believing legitimate communities, who believed what they used, in good faith.

The canonization process was long and convoluted, (which also proves it was not "inspired") as your god would have made it obvious which was, or not, for real, and not left it up to NON-UNANIMOUS votes, in the councils. So if the writing was not inspired, what you mean is the canonization process was inspired, and all the "no" votes were "of the devil" ?

The 4 "remain intact" not because of "scholars", (as Dr. Elaine Pagels from Princeton has pointed out). They "remain intact", because of liturgical use, by people who know nothing about scholarship, AND there never has, and never will be a "re-examination" by anyone in religion, in a religious community. They would be fired, or booted out, and you know it.

Unless you produce the poll, and the data, do not use the "all scholars" bs. You have no way of knowing, if all you have ever taken is fundi classes.

"vetted and in it's proper place" is a false argument from authority, which you have provided no evidence for, and I just demonstrated that IF the decision, IN HIS OWN WORDS, had to do with 4 winds, and 4 columns, and NOT content, then no matter what was written, the process of exclusion, refutes inspiration of content.

I know what scholars are saying, and doing. It's one of my fields.

1) As you know, there WERE hundreds of Gospels and other writings during Irenaeus' time. So, why would he pick THOSE FOUR? BECAUSE they were prominent as that time.

2) I didn't about the process of cannonization but the date. Of course you don't want to put it up, because it came MUCH LATER than when Irenaeus made his statement - thus giving PLEANTY of time for those Gospels to accepted or denied or additional books accepted...

3) REGARDLESS of why Irenaeus says of those Gospels - they do hold BECAUSE of their content - again, they were well established prior to his statement which is WHY he picked THOSE FOUR.

4) The four remain intact, yes, BECAUSE of the other writings - One only needs to read a handful of the other writings to see that they don't truly fit in the Bible the same way the 4 Gospels do - unless you would like to make an argument for some. Not even atheist scholars attack the Bible using the other writings, BECAUSE they hold.

Here is some more info to back up my argument:

http://www.4gospels.com/when-was-it-deci...spels.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm
(which says "As the former (St. Justin) writer belongs to the first part of that century, and speaks of the canonical Gospels as a well-known and fully authentic collection, it is only natural to think that at his time of writing (about A.D. 145) the same Gospels, and they only, had been recognized as sacred records of Christ's life, and that they had been regarded as such at least as early as the beginning of the second century of our era.")

Again, PRIOR to Irenaeus' writings on the four Gospels - so yes, they WERE prominent then.
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28-09-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(27-09-2012 11:49 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Idiot for Christ, what evidence do you have for the resurrection? (third time already)

Maybe by the 8th time you ask I'll answer.
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28-09-2012, 07:55 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(28-09-2012 07:52 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 11:49 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Idiot for Christ, what evidence do you have for the resurrection? (third time already)

Maybe by the 8th time you ask I'll answer.
Gotcha. So you don't have any evidence for your belief whatsoever. Thumbsup

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