2 questions to ask a theist.
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28-09-2012, 04:34 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2012 05:48 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  he PERSONALLY DID, yes. HOWEVER the others were still out there circulating otherwise he wouldn't have felt the need to make his proclamation. And even AFTER he made his comment the other Gospels were still AROUND.
And guess what?
They still are.

You still have missed the point, and attempted deflection. AFTER the proclamation, they were not used any longer, as YOU stated. The fact that they were rediscovered LATER, in no way means they were continuously used. The fact that we know about them now, says nothing about their use or non-use at any time. We KNOW he attempted suppression.

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  If are making the leap that HE and ONLY HE dictated what the four Gospels were to be in our Bible - you have failed to do so.

I am not, (but you have provided no proof, or evidence of your assertion of use).

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  I shouldn't need to post this for you, yet I will: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism
And there's even text books on it.

Duh.

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Again, WHAT SUPPRESSION? The texts are still out there! All of them, do a google search, go to the library. Read them.

Clearly you have no clue what suppression means. The fact that WE know about them, says NOTHING about the use of them in ancient history.

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Of course FIT matters! To say it doesn't is ridiculous. that's like saying, it doesn't matter about fit, English poems should be SUPRESSED from Physics books!

Irenaeus said he suppressed based on the number 4. THAT is the point. Not "fitness". Fitness matter to YOU, today. It did not matter to him. It had NOTHING to do with comparability. The decision of what to include or not, for Irenaeus was the number 4. The excluded texts were excluded because they were more than 4. You just don't get this.

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  It's a matter of getting to the truth with the writings. The fact that most writings don't compare well to each other speaks to the fact they aren't reliable.

Yes. It SHOULD have been, and it should now.
1. you don't really compare, you believe.
2. Irenaeus did not compare, he used the number 4.

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  The NT is quite reliable - when compared to the thousands of texts available from all over and different times, it holds very well.

Bullshit. Assertion with no evidence, and no substance.
What texts ? What is the standard for "holds very well " ?
Who told you that ?

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  The "suppressed" books?
They don't hold up well at all.

What is "hold up well" ? To what ? What is the EXTERNAL standard? There is none. They fail miserably to "hold up" to each other, and to known historical references. The Gospel of Mark has no "salvation" paradigm, and there is no dispute, that the original version had no resurrection. So if THE most important event in the entire story is missing form Mark, as well as no infancy narrative AT ALL, they simply cannot be said to be "comparable" to an EXTERNAL standard. John is SO different from the Synoptics, that also meets no standard of comparison. So what standard are you talking about ? The fact is, there was no sense, in the way modern humans mean it of "historical accuracy". That idea had not formed yet, in human ideas. It would not have occurred to them , that there had to be 'historical accuracy". The idea, did not exist yet.

The Mithra myths are all very similar, as are the Isis myths.

(28-09-2012 03:52 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Also, are their external sources to verify Plato's existence? Nope.
But I bet you believed he lived.

100% wrong.
Yes. He is mentioned in Greek history, contemporaneously with other Greeks we have evidence for, by Greek historians, and has written documents he left, (or dictated), and his students talk about him.

False analogy. No one is claiming he was a god, rose from the dead, did miracles, (today anyway).

(28-09-2012 11:33 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  You wish history to be proven - it can't be done. No history professor, scholar, etc. will say you can.

Historians do not use the word "proof". I do not wish history to be proven. It's a common straw-man, for theists, which they taught you.
There are historical/critical methods which historians use, and various levels of quality of evidence, which provide reliability. The fact that there is no absolute "proof" possible, (including YOUR resurrection BTW, which YOU people use all the time), does not mean one cannot have confidence a text, person or event is historical. So saying "all history is interpretive", and "no proofs are possible", are straw-men. If you ask a historian, "are there ways to be confident something, or someone happened", they would all say "yes". I dare you, go say that to the head of History at Biola.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-09-2012, 05:49 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.



As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-09-2012, 05:50 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Plato is mentioned in various documents.. it's the argument of Socrates that is under debate. It really doesn't matter though if Socrates was a real human or a character. I think he only exists in the writings of Plato and Xenophon as well as some plays. He may of been made up by Plato yet the dialogues are what matters. That we have his Socratic method of philosophy.. and there's nothing beyond belief supernaturally which makes it matter if he was real or fictional.. Which is different to many core belief's with Jesus.

On my front, I would ask these two questions:

What makes your dogma/scripture any more reliable/trustworthy than any of the other deity belief's in the world?

Do you consider the understanding of the power of a brains ability to confuse oneself when you proclaim a personal experience?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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28-09-2012, 07:12 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
"Anyhow, you are in the same position. You can hardly say with more certainty that God doesn't exist than I can that he does."

I disagree with this. God, as defined as Christians, is a pretty spectacular concept, and one for which I have seen no spectacular, or even somewhat substantial, proof. What I have seen is the continuous abstraction of the god meme, to the point where the concept is no longer even in line with the bible's description of god. I can say with more certainty that he doesn't exist than he does. And which god? You dismiss all the others, many of which debate just as well as yours. That says something, when millions of people can believe in dozens of different gods with the same amount of zeal. It's not divine, it's human nature.

I started as a true believer, well into my 20s. God did not speak to me. I did not receive the holy spirit. I did not have prayers answered (I didn't ask for much, regardless). Not one claim made of god in the bible was verified. Then the "gotchas" came along:

He's beyond the physical realm.
You're not a true believer.
He's mysterious.
Keep trying, he wants you to.

For something that can't be grasped by us mere mortals, there sure were a lot of mortals who spoke for him.

The introduction of an idea doesn't give it a 50/50 probability of being true. The lack of evidence and shaky logic push it past the tipping point.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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28-09-2012, 07:22 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Back to the OP.

1) You got an imaginable, let alone reasonable, let alone tenable, mechanism of action for a postmortem preservation of identity?

2) The fuck you still doing in my face?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-09-2012, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2012 08:45 PM by Vosur.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(28-09-2012 04:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Another fucking idiot taking on the resident atheist Doctor of Divinity. Like a barroom brawler taking on Marciano. Not only is it highly entertaining, it warms me cockles I tell you. I gonna start making book on how many posts these fuckers last after tickling Bucky'sBalls.
I don't think he's going to stop anytime soon. You know how delusional peeps function. Hell, he's too dense to even answer the simple, yet fundamental question I asked him.

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28-09-2012, 09:46 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(28-09-2012 08:42 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 04:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Another fucking idiot taking on the resident atheist Doctor of Divinity. Like a barroom brawler taking on Marciano. Not only is it highly entertaining, it warms me cockles I tell you. I gonna start making book on how many posts these fuckers last after tickling Bucky'sBalls.
I don't think he's going to stop anytime soon. You know how delusional peeps function. Hell, he's too dense to even answer the simple, yet fundamental question I asked him.

Even better. If he's like a Jake Lamotta leading with his face or a Marvin Hagler who no one could ever beat the shit out of, just means more rounds I get to watch. ... Adjusting the book. ...

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-09-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(28-09-2012 09:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ... just means more rounds I get to watch. ... Adjusting the book. ...

Girly,
If a post is a punch (miss or hit), what is your definition of a round?

I'm not putting money down until we have clarity on the rules of engagement.

If "rounds" cannot be defined and you choose a points sytem based on punches/posts and given that most watchers here will have a bias towards Bucky, how do you suggest an objective points sytem should work?

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29-09-2012, 01:13 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(28-09-2012 11:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 09:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ... just means more rounds I get to watch. ... Adjusting the book. ...

Girly,
If a post is a punch (miss or hit), what is your definition of a round?

I'm not putting money down until we have clarity on the rules of engagement.

If "rounds" cannot be defined and you choose a points sytem based on punches/posts and given that most watchers here will have a bias towards Bucky, how do you suggest an objective points sytem should work?

Posts.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-09-2012, 09:08 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
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