2 questions to ask a theist.
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03-10-2012, 07:58 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(03-10-2012 07:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your reply is embedded within the quote again and I am unable to make heads nor tails of what you are replying to in each case.

I will say I have not seen any "miracle" posted on here, so if you want to assert that I must have outright ignored it, you are incorrect in that assertion. I will go back and look for it, but I shall guess as to what happened.

Someone got really sick for no known reason, then they got better and the doctors can't explain it. Therefore god. If that is what it was, that is the argument from ignorance.

Irregardless of what the story was (I will go back and read it but I have other matters to attend at the moment) you yourself have already stated (in not so many words) that just because we lack a scientific explanation or scientific evidence for something does not mean it does not have one.

Also, no one ever seems to think that contracting a disease or life-threatening illness is a miracle by god, only the recovery...curious. Confirmation bias much?

I wasn't stating that YOU ignored it - I was asking the question based on if you HAD.
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03-10-2012, 08:10 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Bb - nevermind, found one.

http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion...mithra.htm

But it has a few issues in its conclusions.

Regardless, your initial argument to make it seem that Christianity was "based" on other religions fell flat.

Adopting some "rituals" is far from that.
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03-10-2012, 08:16 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Then there's this:

http://seandharmon.m.webs.com/site/mobil...rk=fw#1233

Which deals with some of the issues of above link.
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03-10-2012, 08:31 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
I will probably have to forgo a response until tomorrow I for C, pretty busy and it takes a little bit to type up my replies for you. I'll peruse the "miracle" you posted as well as the above link.

Do me one favor before we continue though. Read up on fallacies. I do not use the term insultingly and I think at times you think I am trying to. What I am actually doing is pointing out how a reply fails before it even begins.

In particular, look up
Argument from ignorance
Confirmation bias
Circular Reasoning
Straw-man
Argumentum ad populum
Argumentum ad nauseum
Historian's fallacy
Post Hoc ergo proctor hoc
Special Pleading
Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Tradition

I was continually being pounced upon be people when I used some of these fallacies (including arguments I made on this site). There is a section in a book called "Biblical Nonsense" that deals with these too. I am through that section but I have only read 1/3 or so of the book to date.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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03-10-2012, 08:34 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(03-10-2012 08:10 AM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Bb - nevermind, found one.

http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion...mithra.htm

But it has a few issues in its conclusions.

Regardless, your initial argument to make it seem that Christianity was "based" on other religions fell flat.

Adopting some "rituals" is far from that.

What, it's not based on Judaism? Tongue

Very most definitely has some Mithradic influence. But back in the day, they had no conception of the modern, formal scientific method (the informal version is as old as civilization) and modern history.

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03-10-2012, 08:52 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 08:55 AM by Vosur.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(02-10-2012 04:00 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Ah, but this isn't true. YOU think there isn't any.

Just like the "miracle" I posted.

Did you toss it away outright?

Why?

Because you believe miracles don't exist, because there isn't any evidence miracles exist.

But that's circular and allows you to ignore ANY possible evidence of miracles.

Same with God. You dont' believe in God, thus any evidence CAN'T be evidence for God....circular.

So I'll ask you this: what evidence are you looking for?
For example evidence for the resurrection of Jesus.

Isn't it pathetic funny that you defend your belief when it is being compared to Santa Claus, but refuse to do so when you're asked to prove the foundation of Christianity?

That being said, someone who says that there can't be evidence for god/miracles because he doesn't believe in him/them is intellectually dishonest and I wouldn't support his/her position.

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03-10-2012, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2012 10:12 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(02-10-2012 04:00 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  How did this small band of Christians spread THEIR message over the others?
And Bucky can help you understand how the oral traditions of that time work and that they were VERY GOOD at passing information along with little "mistakes".

The idea that some illiterate fishermen, with not one former instance of travel outside of, or habit of travel, the sticks of Galilee, all of a sudden, gave up their trade, and found hitherto non-existent funds to suddenly became world travelers all over the Eastern Mediterranean is utterly preposterous.

The "oral traditions" thing is pure speculation. That's not how things were done that late. The "oral traditions" thing during the Roman occupation, and the time of Rome is simply historically false. There are mountains of written documents. Actually we know from the Documentary Hypothesis that even the Old Testament was written down. That "oral" stuff is just what they told you. That's not how it worked in Roman occupied Palestine, and probably never did, as we know the written sources for almost everything. As IfC is so fond of saying ... "speculation".

There is not one shred of evidence for god. "supernatural" can be used as an explanation, ONLY if the standard of explanation also involves divine pink unicorns, as there is as much evidence for them as for god.

"miracles" prove nothing. The perceptions of totally ignorant, illiterate, non-scientific people, who also perceived miracles as being done by the other 20 apocalyptics running around makes ANY claim of miracle-working ridiculous. They ALL were seen as doing miracles. So it's not unique to Jesus.

So, the Idiot has a "choice" in his beliefs ? I think we're starting to see the problem. He actually thinks he chooses to believe what to believe or not to believe, instead of honestly setting a standard, (evidence), and then comparing what he thinks he may know to the standard. If I have a choice in what I believe, then I choose "the moon is made of green cheese".

He believes his beliefs to be true, because his beliefs tell him they are true. Heh heh. So do people in psych units. Atheism is not a belief system. It dismisses the positive assertion, and makes no further assertion. Atheists say "THAT (tribal) god is preposterous", based on the evil he is shown to have done, (or whatever). There is no evidence for gods or the best scientists in the world would mostly all believe in gods, as they are the BEST in evaluating evidence. The fact is they are almost all atheists.

Please learn, BEFORE you post anything more, how to do a quote. This thread is almost impossible to follow., Is that too hard for you ?

"Christianity" is debunked because it's based on the "salvation paradigm". We know how and why that is false. Whether or not the Jesus dude actually existed, is another matter, and even if he did, it proves nothing about the claims made about him

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-10-2012, 09:14 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 09:17 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(03-10-2012 08:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Please learn, BEFORE you post anything more, how to do a quote. This thread is almost impossible to follow., Is that too hard for you ?

Yeah, there's some gospel right there. If not quote blocks, at least quotation marks.

Idiot, I think you are an intelligent, insightful person who could make a valuable contribution here, but not if we cannot separate your words from others. Thumbsup

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03-10-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
I have three standard questions:

1.) How old were you when you decided your god was real?
2.) How much evidence would it take for you to reconsider your belief?
3.) What do you consider to be the consequences for changing or giving up your belief?

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." — Robert Ingersoll
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03-10-2012, 07:09 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(03-10-2012 08:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I will probably have to forgo a response until tomorrow I for C, pretty busy and it takes a little bit to type up my replies for you. I'll peruse the "miracle" you posted as well as the above link.

Do me one favor before we continue though. Read up on fallacies. I do not use the term insultingly and I think at times you think I am trying to. What I am actually doing is pointing out how a reply fails before it even begins.

In particular, look up
Argument from ignorance
Confirmation bias
Circular Reasoning
Straw-man
Argumentum ad populum
Argumentum ad nauseum
Historian's fallacy
Post Hoc ergo proctor hoc
Special Pleading
Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Tradition

I was continually being pounced upon be people when I used some of these fallacies (including arguments I made on this site). There is a section in a book called "Biblical Nonsense" that deals with these too. I am through that section but I have only read 1/3 or so of the book to date.

If I make such an argument - I wish it pointed out.

You made a couple claims in your reply that I did make such - however, I don't feel I did in such cases, unless you can point the the exact quote.

However, you did make some arguments (perhaps not on your list above) that have NOTHING to do with whether or not Christianity exists.

Now, I don't want to debate "fallacies" so, I'll only post this about them.

If I do make any of the above - point them out! Quote them and show me, I'm not afraid of being clearer.

However, you can't run from the fact (as I pointed out in my reply) your irrelevant arguments. What ONE religion does/doesn't do - does not necessarily translate to the validity to Christianity. Many of your arguments were just that.

That's my reply...I await your other
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