2 questions to ask a theist.
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10-10-2012, 03:28 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Oh, and it was in my reply to you I attached
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10-10-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(10-10-2012 03:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-10-2012 03:16 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  Hey BB -

How's that paper going?

Coming along. There are others in line before that one. And I have to go to real school. Some of my books are on loan to a friend doing her dissertation. I'll need them back to finish it.

What no teaser?
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11-10-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
I have reread it and all I see are statements like:
"To you or I a persons experience that may/may not be a miracle falls short for us. THAT’S what I was getting at above when I discuss that NEITHER of us can find evidence that will satisfy 100% of humanity."

and

"You wish there to be more evidence, yet you haven’t said what evidence you want to see nor that it would 100% satisfy you."

Except I did tell you exactly what would convince me.

or
"I listed AREAS that I look into…of which can be for/against the existence of God.
The only thing you can’t argue against (which is perhaps why you think it’s a fallacy) is my personal experience. Again, we haven’t discussed the evidence for/against God.
Again, providing a list of areas I look in to see the varied evidence for/against my belief, doesn’t explain the reasoning of my belief."


Arguing that your personal experience is evidence in any way shape or form may not be a fallacy per se, but it is not evidence and can be dismissed as mere delusion. Should I take schizophrenics at their word? Can one not experience something they perceive as real and it be a complete figment of the imagination? If you have evidence (not personal experience) for this, please enlighten me.

Also we have
"There IS evidence against things that we don’t believe in. You seem to lack this area of understanding of discovering truths of a claim.
I listed evidence AGAINST Santa – you can do the same with the Easter Bunny, etc. The fact you think one cannot provide evidence AGAINST something is very telling..
Test: are you atheist about Santa, or will go out on a limb and assert that he doesn’t exist?"


Prove nonexistence. You can't. Demonstrate evidence for nonexistence. I do not believe Santa does not exist in an absolute sense, I simply reject the idea all together as a completely irrational and illogical belief. Not because I am able in any way shape or form capable of disproving it. The fact that you think nonexistence of something can be proven is very telling.

You also use some example of a worm vs. a worm in your yard. You do realize that while I can't evaluate the claim, personally, I can safely say that if the soil in your yard has a certain amount of organics and fine particles, you certainly have invertebrates (including annelids) living within it. This is why soil formation is in part so weak in desert environments. The conditions are not conducive for the organic material needed to sustain the invertebrates long enough to sustain themselves or deep enough to prevent desiccation. I don't need to dig up every ounce of your yard to find the evidence, but we have scoured our world and the universe for evidence for your god and so far all you have told me is...well I don't freaking know. You run around the issue and while use say it was prominent in your reply, all I see is conjecture and an attempt to reason out of the logical fallacies you have committed.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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11-10-2012, 07:38 AM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Note: You would do well not to take on a geologist/paleontologist using examples like the worm and elephant.

Also, here is where you implied Islam predated Christianity
My statement about the Roman Empire taking up Christianity:
"It appears that it eliminated the competition."

"Um…Judiasm is still around, Islam is still around, etc.

So, not ALL the competition was eliminated."


Judaism predated Christianity, and if you look far enough back, it has roots in polytheism. Yes, I mean the earliest iterations of the old testament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

As for Islam, it did not start until the 7th century CE. Mohamed discussed Jesus in some of his "sermons" (they don't call them sermons, they use a different term) and Mary is mentioned more times in the Qua'ran than in the bible.

Judaism may still be around, but it is certainly not a major religion in the world any longer (less than 1% of the global population). So it certainly isn't doing well in terms of having adherents.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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11-10-2012, 02:06 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Is it bad to say I am enjoying TheBeardedDude rip into this guy? Should I join in, or stay out of it because I know he has this...

For now I will keep on watching, waiting... And chewing my popcorn very loudly.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
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11-10-2012, 02:50 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
I don't hold any monopoly on anything or anyone in this thread.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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11-10-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
BD -

Okay, interesting how instead of pointing out JUST ONE area of my reply to show how my defense of my arguments NOT being fallacious you pick the following:

Quote:I have reread it and all I see are statements like:
"To you or I a persons experience that may/may not be a miracle falls short for us. THAT’S what I was getting at above when I discuss that NEITHER of us can find evidence that will satisfy 100% of humanity."

and

"You wish there to be more evidence, yet you haven’t said what evidence you want to see nor that it would 100% satisfy you." Page 13

Except I did tell you exactly what would convince me.

First off – you did state one particular incident that you claim would convince YOU, so I will retract that statement - though the REST of the statement says 100%.

So I'll ask then as a follow up - will it convince you 100% and how do you KNOW it will?

However, in the first sentence quoted above I say, “neither of us can find evidence that will satisfy 100% of humanity.”

You ignore this part of this discussion.

I also went through that even if it DID convince you, why would we think it would convince others? Or everyone else? Then what?

Remember - we are talking about evidence to the masses as well as to the individual. You offer ONLY evidence for YOU, but not for others.

I ask you what if someone else doesn't believe you - I'd be interested in that answer.

However, below, you say, “ (personal experience) is not evidence and can be dismissed as mere delusion.”

Ah, but YOUR evidence you cited that would convince you is....personal experience.

So, according to you below we can right off as delusional, thus shouldn’t take your word that it happened nor that it’s evidence for God.

Which is why I brought up the follow up questions AFTER your example for evidence…

So I’ll ask again here: fine it’s evidence for you, but what about someone that doesn’t believe you? After all, it’s just YOUR experience.


Quote:or
"I listed AREAS that I look into…of which can be for/against the existence of God.
The only thing you can’t argue against (which is perhaps why you think it’s a fallacy) is my personal experience. Again, we haven’t discussed the evidence for/against God.
Again, providing a list of areas I look in to see the varied evidence for/against my belief, doesn’t explain the reasoning of my belief."

Arguing that your personal experience is evidence in any way shape or form may not be a fallacy per se, but it is not evidence and can be dismissed as mere delusion.

Correct, not a fallacy. So here you quote my reply in where you (quietly) admit that I didn't make a fallacious argument.

But here is what I just alluded to above: what YOU would consider evidence to convince you.

Yet, this would be a personal experience as well – thus, how would you KNOW it wasn’t a delusion?

How would WE know?

And why should I believe you that it WOULD convince you, since you COULD right it off as a delusion?

Quote: Should I take schizophrenics at their word? Can one not experience something they perceive as real and it be a complete figment of the imagination? If you have evidence (not personal experience) for this, please enlighten me.


Certainly people experience something that isn’t real – I see this quite often, I, in fact, work with people who live with mental illness.
And yes, we have reasons to believe they ARE delusions.

I'll give you an example: when I ran a foster care home for MI folks, one of the residence believed that the house was run by terrorist, that he was (currently) a Marine held captive there, and that he was married to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that EVERY NIGHT he was raped, tortured, and shot.

Well did we believe him?

No.

But why didn't we believe him?

Well, it's because we had ample evidence AGAINST his claims. And since I was responsible for his care, and saw him nearly on a daily basis, part of my job was to know AS MUCH about this man that I could, via case managers, doctors, etc.

So, how do i know that he wasn't shot the previous night?
1) overnight staff didn't hear gunshots.
2) he had no injuries as a result of this. (of course, he offered up that this was do to the fact that he "heals quickly") - however, these bullets were supposedly IN HIM still, yet NO x-ray ever showed this - absense of evidence.
3) I know the owner of the company that I work for, have been to her house, she's not a terrorist.
4) the staff I hired to work at the house were not terrorist.
5) he has no military record

and I could go on.

So, thank you for asking such a question.

Hey, I agree, personal experience ALONE is not very good evidence, which is why I don't put it high on my list for evidence - when speaking to other people.

however, it can't be outright rejected without good reason - such as the example I provide above. If you can't outright reject it - default is "don't know."

Quote:Also we have
"There IS evidence against things that we don’t believe in. You seem to lack this area of understanding of discovering truths of a claim.
I listed evidence AGAINST Santa – you can do the same with the Easter Bunny, etc. The fact you think one cannot provide evidence AGAINST something is very telling..
Test: are you atheist about Santa, or will go out on a limb and assert that he doesn’t exist?"

Prove nonexistence. You can't. Demonstrate evidence for nonexistence. I do not believe Santa does not exist in an absolute sense, I simply reject the idea all together as a completely irrational and illogical belief. Not because I am able in any way shape or form capable of disproving it. The fact that you think nonexistence of something can be proven is very telling.

PROOF AGAIN! YOU are using the word PROOF! Where did I say that we could PROVE Santa doesn’t exist? NOT EVEN in the quote above do you see me use the word PROOF!

Not even in my exchange about Santa earlier in this thread do I say I can't dis-PROVE Santa.

You are putting words in my mouth and changing the goal post.

Read again, I say there is EVIDENCE AGAINST – not proof against. For some reason you believe one cannot provide EVIDENCE against either Santa or God.

Not sure why...as I certainly can, and did.

But I'll take a different direction to make this clearer to you.

Why do you say belief in Santa is an irrational and illogical belief?

Quote:You also use some example of a worm vs. a worm in your yard. You do realize that while I can't evaluate the claim, personally, I can safely say that if the soil in your yard has a certain amount of organics and fine particles, you certainly have invertebrates (including annelids) living within it. This is why soil formation is in part so weak in desert environments. The conditions are not conducive for the organic material needed to sustain the invertebrates long enough to sustain themselves or deep enough to prevent desiccation.

Wow did you miss the point, which further says to me that you didn't really read my reply.

Quote: I don't need to dig up every ounce of your yard to find the evidence, but we have scoured our world and the universe for evidence for your god and so far all you have told me is...well I don't freaking know.

Really? You scoured the universe and word looking for evidence looking for God? You have?

Quote: You run around the issue and while use say it was prominent in your reply, all I see is conjecture and an attempt to reason out of the logical fallacies you have committed.

Probably becaues you didn't really read it, just skimmed it...

Evident by the fact that you don't know my answer to: can you prove God?

Heck the answer was in the FIRST exchange!

However, what is interesting in even THIS exchange - you don’t defend ONE CLAIM Of fallacy you accuse me of...other than to just say it generally...

Instead you bring up issues and part you either didn’t read, or didn’t understand. What do we find about fallacies? Above you ADMIT one claim of fallacies against me was in fact, NOT a fallacy as I pointed out.

Quote:Note: You would do well not to take on a geologist/paleontologist using examples like the worm and elephant.

Again, you completely missed the point. this reinforces it.

Quote:Also, here is where you implied Islam predated Christianity
My statement about the Roman Empire taking up Christianity:
"It appears that it eliminated the competition."

"Um…Judiasm is still around, Islam is still around, etc.

So, not ALL the competition was eliminated."

Judaism predated Christianity, and if you look far enough back, it has roots in polytheism. Yes, I mean the earliest iterations of the old testament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

As for Islam, it did not start until the 7th century CE. Mohamed discussed Jesus in some of his "sermons" (they don't call them sermons, they use a different term) and Mary is mentioned more times in the Qua'ran than in the bible.

Judaism may still be around, but it is certainly not a major religion in the world any longer (less than 1% of the global population). So it certainly isn't doing well in terms of having adherents.

Okay, context helps in this case. Remember, you were making the claim that Rome’s adoption of Christianity was NEEDED for it to spread - how? by taking care of the competition you assert.

However, as you just pointed out about Islam – Islam came FAR after the adoption of Christianity. Not only did Rome not CRUSH all the competition, at least one aother religion sprang up...LATER!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_churc...e_of_Islam

In addition, there wasn't much CRUSHING going on really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_p...man_Empire

All said, I still don’t believe you read my reply – skimmed, maybe, looking for what you could (you think) respond to, yet as we have seen, even what you cherry picked didn’t work out in your favor.

I challenge you to, please, show me my defense is wrong? Just ONE example – if I did such a terrible job as you (generally just say) then it should be quite easy to show (regardless of what I may say).

heck you took the time to do this reply with quotes...
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11-10-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
One area? Okay. You can't provide EVIDENCE for nonexistence of anything. You can demonstrate through a lack of evidence something being unlikely but that is not evidence against it.

"So, how do i know that he wasn't shot the previous night?
1) overnight staff didn't hear gunshots.
2) he had no injuries as a result of this. (of course, he offered up that this was do to the fact that he "heals quickly") - however, these bullets were supposedly IN HIM still, yet NO x-ray ever showed this - absense of evidence.
3) I know the owner of the company that I work for, have been to her house, she's not a terrorist.
4) the staff I hired to work at the house were not terrorist.
5) he has no military record"

1) Not evidence against it. The overnight staff is absent of the knowledge of gunshots. That does not mean it did not happen, only that they lack the knowledge that it happened.
2) So he can't use the argument that he heals quickly and that his body assimilated the bullets? How would one disprove that if the claim were made?
3) I can't know if your wife loves you or not but you know if someone is a terrorist by going to their house? How did you obtain this skill and what about their house would prove they are not a terrorist? What does a terrorist's house look like? Timothy McVeigh had a perfectly normal house, he kept all the explosives supplies in a storage shed. Could she have a shed full of "terrorist" supplies?
4) Same point as above. You don't believe they are terrorists, but neither did the Army when they allowed McVeigh to enlist and no one denied any of the 9/11 attackers entrance into the US.
5) What if he had said he had military experience in a past life? Where do you begin to deconstruct that claim.

Not one single point you are making is evidence against it. Every single point is either a point of absent evidence or a strategy can be employed whereby an untestable or unverifiable or unfalsifiable addition can be made.

Ergo, when you site your "evidence" that a god exists by listing things like love and the universe, all you are doing is listing things and emotions we humans have defined. The universe exists and it is evidence it exists. The fact that the universe exists demonstrates the universe exists. There is no requirement for the universe to exist along with a god.

Round and round we go. Give me one, just one, piece of evidence against something that does not exist or did not happen. If you can, you will win a nobel prize, and I am not kidding. That would truly be humanity's greatest achievement. Are you arrogant enough to think you can?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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11-10-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(10-10-2012 03:31 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
(10-10-2012 03:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Coming along. There are others in line before that one. And I have to go to real school. Some of my books are on loan to a friend doing her dissertation. I'll need them back to finish it.

What no teaser?

If you know the prominent parable scholars, you won't be surprised. You may be by the external sources from non-canonical texts, and other circulating Near East sources. Don't hold your breath. I have a lot of other stuff in the works also :

Immortal Souls debunked, Immortality, where did it come from ? "For thou are dust, and unto dust thou shalt return" ??
Where did Moses come from? The Books of J, E, P, and D. Documentary Hypothesis, Fragmentary Hypothesis, new developments.
Parables : Sources, meanings, context, and use.
The Golden Calf, the Judean Priests, and ancient "church politics".
Biola University, Presuppositionalism,, the rise of American Evangelicalism/Literalism/Fundamentalism, good-faith search for truth, or exercise in confirmation bias ?
Do you eat shrimp ? Pick your abomination.
Who gets to be a priest ? Can you count in cubits ? The concept of "pious fraud".
The Persian Imperative, the Torah of Moses, Ezra's letter from Artaxerxes, and the Bible makes it's debut, (bring a sandwitch).
Resurrection, intent of gospels, reliability of witnesses, standards of evidence, magical thinking, ubiquitous miracles, zombie bodies, consistent acceptance of other events with same level of evidence,
Megabelifs, fault tolerance, (doubt), graceful degradation, paradigm shift, induction of "crisis of faith", in Systems Theory
Relationship of Jews and Christians in Early Church
Inspiration and Suppression, actual historical processes in canon formation
"Goof" (non-Biblical) notion of faith as Moral Choice, place of legitimate un-belief
Group Theory, "demonization" of the "other" and Conflict Theory
Linguistic consistency, and bad faith use of the Kalam argument.
Paulianity, or why the religion Christians practice really isn't.
Why Mormonism is not (historically) Christianity
All of Christianity built on "goof" of sin, vs Chaos.
Theist' s concept of "Free Will" debunked
Legitimacy of honest Non-Belief in Christian Theology
St. Ireneaus, and the myth of community authentication, and how proven known historical processes disprove "inspiration" claims.
The rise of American Protestant Fundamentalism, and how it stands, historically, outside the authentic Christian tradition, historic roots and rise of
Purification, Atonement, Mithraism, and Zoroastrianism
Micha-el, Gabri-el, Uri-el, Rapha-el, Ragu-el, Sari-el, Remi-el. Notice anything fishy ?
Ghosts, goblins, magical thinking, rituals, ancestor worship, fables, in pre-scientific ancient and modern cultures

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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11-10-2012, 04:32 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(11-10-2012 03:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-10-2012 03:31 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  What no teaser?

If you know the prominent parable scholars, you won't be surprised. You may be by the external sources from non-canonical texts, and other circulating Near East sources. Don't hold your breath. I have a lot of other stuff in the works also :

Immortal Souls debunked, Immortality, where did it come from ? "For thou are dust, and unto dust thou shalt return" ??
Where did Moses come from? The Books of J, E, P, and D. Documentary Hypothesis, Fragmentary Hypothesis, new developments.
Parables : Sources, meanings, context, and use.
The Golden Calf, the Judean Priests, and ancient "church politics".
Biola University, Presuppositionalism,, the rise of American Evangelicalism/Literalism/Fundamentalism, good-faith search for truth, or exercise in confirmation bias ?
Do you eat shrimp ? Pick your abomination.
Who gets to be a priest ? Can you count in cubits ? The concept of "pious fraud".
The Persian Imperative, the Torah of Moses, Ezra's letter from Artaxerxes, and the Bible makes it's debut, (bring a sandwitch).
Resurrection, intent of gospels, reliability of witnesses, standards of evidence, magical thinking, ubiquitous miracles, zombie bodies, consistent acceptance of other events with same level of evidence,
Megabelifs, fault tolerance, (doubt), graceful degradation, paradigm shift, induction of "crisis of faith", in Systems Theory
Relationship of Jews and Christians in Early Church
Inspiration and Suppression, actual historical processes in canon formation
"Goof" (non-Biblical) notion of faith as Moral Choice, place of legitimate un-belief
Group Theory, "demonization" of the "other" and Conflict Theory
Linguistic consistency, and bad faith use of the Kalam argument.
Paulianity, or why the religion Christians practice really isn't.
Why Mormonism is not (historically) Christianity
All of Christianity built on "goof" of sin, vs Chaos.
Theist' s concept of "Free Will" debunked
Legitimacy of honest Non-Belief in Christian Theology
St. Ireneaus, and the myth of community authentication, and how proven known historical processes disprove "inspiration" claims.
The rise of American Protestant Fundamentalism, and how it stands, historically, outside the authentic Christian tradition, historic roots and rise of
Purification, Atonement, Mithraism, and Zoroastrianism
Micha-el, Gabri-el, Uri-el, Rapha-el, Ragu-el, Sari-el, Remi-el. Notice anything fishy ?
Ghosts, goblins, magical thinking, rituals, ancestor worship, fables, in pre-scientific ancient and modern cultures

Yikes! That's one hell of a teaser. Planning to sell the movie rights?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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