2 questions to ask a theist.
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25-09-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Impulse

"
You really need to learn what your own faith teaches. It teaches that God is the ultimate beginning of everything. Without him, there would be nothing - that includes love, logic, sin, etc. He supposedly created the universe, everything in it, all the laws of physics, time, etc. Everything."

So, do you believe that logic exists or not? You didn't answer. Once you do, we can go back to whether or not the nature of something is created or not.
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25-09-2012, 04:27 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Stark - thanks for the welcome.

"i hope you realize that your nickname is inevitably going to be "Idiot" though."

I've been called worse by better people...lol.
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25-09-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
V -

Moving the goalpost now? Now I have to disprove Santa? No, as you know I said there was ample evidence against Santa. I provided some of that evidence, which then a person looks at the evidence and concludes that Santa probably doesn't exist.

But let's get to your list for "evidence" against God.

1. Claimed 'miracles' turn out to be fake every single time.
a. I would say there are many folks who disagree, and since you haven't witnessed each miracle (especially those you don't know have happened) you can't say this for certain.
2. Faith healing doesn't work
a. same as above. Many people claim that it does - since you weren't there you can't say for sure.
3. Prayer doesn't do anything
a. what is it supposed to do? God's a vending machine? But again, many people say it does.
4. No evidence for god
a. I would argue and many Christians would argue there is.
5. No evidence for angels, devils or any other supernatural creatures
a. Ditto.
6. We can trace back god's origins
a. please do...I would be interested in this link it up!

So your list, V is nothing but assertions YOU would like to be true. However, unlike my list that I provided I gave SPECIFIC examples and reasons. You just offer yourself up as the authority that God doesn't exist by your assertions.

Yeah...didn't think you could do it.
7. No need for god(s) to explain anything
etc.
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25-09-2012, 04:40 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(25-09-2012 04:24 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  So, do you believe that logic exists or not? You didn't answer. Once you do, we can go back to whether or not the nature of something is created or not.

That's boring BS.
We already know that logic exists, what kinda believe should that be?
I know the coffee-pot in my hand exists, so there is no room for believing in a coffee-pot.
The existens of x only proves the existens of x, nothing more, nothing less.
So, how do you get from x to god?

If atheism is a religion, then not playing football is an Olympic discipline.
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25-09-2012, 04:42 PM
2 questions to ask a theist.
(25-09-2012 04:27 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  I've been called worse by better people...lol.

Ouch! That's not cool, man. Bad form.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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25-09-2012, 04:45 PM
2 questions to ask a theist.
Unless I am much mistaken you seem to believe in angels and god despite a lack of evidence. Remind me why we are discussing evidence at all?

Or allow me this question: does your belief stem from evidence?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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25-09-2012, 04:47 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
(25-09-2012 04:36 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  But let's get to your list for "evidence" against God.

1. Claimed 'miracles' turn out to be fake every single time.
a. I would say there are many folks who disagree, and since you haven't witnessed each miracle (especially those you don't know have happened) you can't say this for certain.
There is no verifiable evidence for any miracle. Eyewitness accounts are not evidence.
Quote:2. Faith healing doesn't work
a. same as above. Many people claim that it does - since you weren't there you can't say for sure.
Faith healing has been tested and has failed.
Quote:3. Prayer doesn't do anything
a. what is it supposed to do? God's a vending machine? But again, many people say it does.
The effectiveness of prayer has been tested and has failed.
Quote:4. No evidence for god
a. I would argue and many Christians would argue there is.
Please bring forth your evidence.
Quote:5. No evidence for angels, devils or any other supernatural creatures
a. Ditto.
Please bring forth your evidence.
Quote:6. We can trace back god's origins
a. please do...I would be interested in this link it up!
We can trace the origins of religions.
Quote:So your list, V is nothing but assertions YOU would like to be true. However, unlike my list that I provided I gave SPECIFIC examples and reasons. You just offer yourself up as the authority that God doesn't exist by your assertions.

Yeah...didn't think you could do it.
7. No need for god(s) to explain anything
etc.
We have credible scientific evidence and explanations that do not have supernatural components.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-09-2012, 04:57 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Guitar - Sorry I didn't post within the time frame you were hoping for. So let's get to your post:


"I have seen human beings who are below four feet tall. We call them little people. One of many definitions of an elf:
One of a kind of legendary beings, usually characterized as small, manlike, and mischievous. A little person can posses all of these traits. Tell me again how there is no evidence of elves existing anywhere. I've seen them. Then tell me why you believe in angels, which I haven't seen."


But where they elves and did they work in the N. Pole did they make toys for Santa? I'm sure the little people of the world would be glad to know you might think of them as elves. But yes, I would agree that "seeing" little people such as you stated could be evidence of them...yet I haven't seen such a proclomation from said little people...so your at best just SPECULATING that they "could" be elves.

2. No evidence of a toy manufactoring plant in the N. Pole owned by Santa, worked at by elves. And this would have to be a biiiiiig place to make all those toys.

As big as the Ark? It is very obvious that Santa has powers that allow him to exist outside of our natural laws. The ability to deliver gifts around the world in one night proves this. Why would his shop be any different? Also, there are companies that provide products worldwide. A single cereal factory, for example, can produce millions of boxes of cereal in a year. There's a real world example of a not-so-big structure producing huge volumes of product. Since Santa's "customers" are only children, he doesn't need to produce something for every person in the world.

Well, how many children are there in the world? Yeah, to make all those toys (that are already made by OTHER companies? Lawsuit anyone?) it would have to be a fairly large factory. Second, Obvious Santa has powers to exist outside of our natural laws? Please cite, don't assert. Also, those "not so big structures" are still seen aren't they? And given that there isn't much in the way of structures in the N. Pole pretty much ANY structure would be seen. Especially one using light - to which the factory most likely would.

3. No evidence of flying reindeer (as listed in link).

How would you actually see them? Santa exists beyond space-time limitations.

This is bad...really...Um, well for one they are to be stabled AT Santas supposed shop. Also, given that there are stories of them being spotted flying...they can BE SEEN flying. Also, SANTA might exist beyond space-time, however, the deer don't and there is no evidence (as we would expect there to be) that they do.

4. No guy evey actually claiming to be Santa has ever proven he was Santa.

No guy ever actually claiming to be Jesus has ever proven he was Jesus.

irrelevant to the discussion at hand, dodges the question, also it doesn't refute the statement.

1. All parents admit that it is THEY who provide the child with toys on Christmas Eve - not Santa.

Mine didn't. Besides, priests have admitted they didn't believe in god and never felt the holy spirit. Those parents simply weren't true believers.

Anecdotal. Priests comments again irrelevant to the discussion. Please cite more than just your parents that don't admit to providing said toys and even better: find parents (with adult children) claim that Santa DID provide the presents that they couldn't.

2. Toys Santa supposedly makes at his shop, can be purchased at various store around the world and are actually made by OTHER companies (ample proof of this).

Miracles attributed to god can be credited to random luck and occurrence. But to explain, children want what they see. A child sees an advertisement for a toy on TV and asks for it. Santa must make this toy, regardless of its original manufacturer. How can a child ask for a toy that doesn't already exist?

Again, you keep making irrelevant statements (to bolster your weaker arguments to follow, I know, but really to make a solid argument you should stay ON TOPIC). why MUST Santa make the toy? Assertions don't make it so. I think Sony would have something to say about Santa making their PS3...

3. All Santas found at malls around Christmas times are actually persons playing Santa.

Yeah. The baby Jesus at my old church's nativity scene turned out to be a neighborhood baby. I understand your disappointment here.

And you don't even try here....

4. Same with the elves.

Ditto on the wise men.

5. the Santa that we all know and love (especially children) who is at the mall and on Coke products during the holiday season was created by Haddon Sundblom (though there were other depictions of Santa, this one caught on).

No, he simply channeled the word of Santa, as the bible's authors did with the word of god.

Another assertion without ANY citation to back it up.

6. Santa's origins can be traced back - try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus for more info.

The concept of all-powerful gods can also be traced back. As well as scapegoats. Miracles. Magical powers. Creation of the earth. Etc.

Another off topic statement that doesn't actually refute the statement it answers.

You have not, in my opinion, provided a solid argument against Santa.

Ah...the "opinion" word. Well, regardless of your "opinion" you pretty much failed to refute any of what I listed as evidence AGAINST Santa. You didn't even stay on topic in your answers. Nor, did you cite a source (other than yourself) for ANY of the assertions you made.

You tried, and that's what's important.Smile
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25-09-2012, 05:02 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Marco - "We already know that logic exists"

How was logic then created if it does exist?

Cardinal - It was a joke, dont' take me so seriously.
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25-09-2012, 05:17 PM
RE: 2 questions to ask a theist.
Chas -

1. Claimed 'miracles' turn out to be fake every single time.
a. I would say there are many folks who disagree, and since you haven't witnessed each miracle (especially those you don't know have happened) you can't say this for certain.
There is no verifiable evidence for any miracle. Eyewitness accounts are not evidence.


One doesn't have to accept them for sure, but assertions aren't evidence AGAINST something either. Also, I guess if you witness a miracle, we shouldn't believe you. Sadly, only eyewitness accounts and personal experience are what we have for evidence - i wish it were more, but it's not under my control. But then again, miracles are more meant to be personal than public.

Quote:
2. Faith healing doesn't work
a. same as above. Many people claim that it does - since you weren't there you can't say for sure.
Faith healing has been tested and has failed.


In certain settings for sure, in other settings (I know, outside of what YOU would accept) they have not failed. but then again - I guess a God that needs to jump through hoops to "prove" himself isn't much of a God.

Quote:
3. Prayer doesn't do anything
a. what is it supposed to do? God's a vending machine? But again, many people say it does.
The effectiveness of prayer has been tested and has failed.


Again, what is the purpose of prayer you think? Just to get things from God? what effectiveness is one looking for? It's worked for me, and many many people I know as well.

Quote:
4. No evidence for god
a. I would argue and many Christians would argue there is.
Please bring forth your evidence.


I plan to over the course my time here.

Quote:
5. No evidence for angels, devils or any other supernatural creatures
a. Ditto.
Please bring forth your evidence.

Quote:
6. We can trace back god's origins
a. please do...I would be interested in this link it up!
We can trace the origins of religions.


5. As long as you bring forth your evidence against them too!

6. yep we can trace religions...the claim was GOD. Please cite his origins please.

Quote:
So your list, V is nothing but assertions YOU would like to be true. However, unlike my list that I provided I gave SPECIFIC examples and reasons. You just offer yourself up as the authority that God doesn't exist by your assertions.


Guess you agree with this statement that it was just asserions and no specifics.

Yeah...didn't think you could do it.
7. No need for god(s) to explain anything
etc.
We have credible scientific evidence and explanations that do not have supernatural components.


Correct, but that says nothing against God does it? No, there are still a few un answered and BIG questions (including philosopical ones) that can't readily be explained away...

thanks for your reply
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