2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
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23-04-2011, 02:49 PM
2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
A quicky...

Can someone explain to me in layman-terms why the big bang theory does not collide with the law of entropy?

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24-04-2011, 07:34 AM
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
Because if they collided there would be a HUGE explosion resulting in the creation of.......um.......wait......never mind.

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24-04-2011, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2011 11:08 AM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
I'm not a physicist, so if you want a proper answer, disregard this, but to my understanding of the Big Bang(which isn't that great), everything still existed in a sense, but condensed to a singularity. Also, a side note, since the "universe"(or the pre-universe speck) likely didn't have the same basic laws of nature, it's possible that the first law of thermodynamics didn't ally.

Here's what Iron Chariots says:
Iron Chariots Wrote:The Big Bang theory states that around 13.7 billion years ago the universe was condensed into an incredibly small, hot, dense "ball" of space and time called a singularity. At that time there was no physical matter in the universe....There is a common misconception that the Big Bang means that the universe "came from nothing." Creationists use this as a launching point to claim that without introducing God, the first law of thermodynamics would be violated...The Big Bang theory does not say that the dot came "from nothing"; it simply postulates the existence of the singularity and then proceeds from there. The answer to the question of what came before the Big Bang is simply "No one knows yet."

EDIT: Oops, sorry. Second law, I misread it as the first. I'll have to go do some reading on that.

This guy does a relatively good job at making it all simple.

Mano Singham Wrote:The solution here is that because the universe is expanding it keeps getting shifted out of equilibrium, and in the drive to reach a new equilibrium state, you can get pockets of order occurring without violating the second law, because the maximum allowable entropy also keeps increasing.

Back to our helium example, even after the gas has completely occupied the room, if we now increase the volume of space available to it by opening the door that connects to an adjacent room, then the gas is now suddenly in partial order again because it is in only one part of the total space allowable to it. It is thus far from equilibrium and needs to start diffusing again to reach the new equilibrium where it uniformly occupies both rooms. In other words, its entropy increases even though it was at maximum entropy before the door was opened. This happens because the increasing volume accessible to the gas also increases the maximum entropy available to it.

It it all has to be with the expansion, which allows for concentrations of order in various spots. It goes on in more technical detail, but it's really not that bad to dissect.

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24-04-2011, 11:40 AM
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
Thanks...
I am going to dig into this...

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24-04-2011, 01:51 PM
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
I was going to respond, but then realized that all my knowledge about the Laws of Thermodynamics come from this video and wikipedia.




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24-04-2011, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2011 04:16 PM by Observer.)
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
Mine too buddy-Christ... And it's bothering me...

I know 2nd law does not apply concerning the evolution theory, but it's the Big Bang theory where I have a problem.

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24-04-2011, 03:48 PM
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
That's why I never want to quit school. Ideally I would take college classes(even if it's just one community college class a semester) all through most of my life. Just too much stuff to learn.

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24-04-2011, 06:35 PM
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
@observer
Wiki is a great starting point , but it's all it is. I always look at the references and if I get to an article in a reputable journal or a study I consider myself satisfied.
To answer your question I think I heard this on a Atheist Experience episode , a lot of creationists use this "conflict" as a way to disprove the big bang.
The law of entropy doesn't collide because the universe is not a closed system , it's an open system.
(I believe Lawrence Krauss in his lecture "A Universe from Nothing" pointed out the evidence for an open Universe)

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25-04-2011, 06:56 AM
 
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
I'd like to try help explain it if i can, but which part of the big bang theory is it you can't reconcile with the second law of thermodynamics?

How "everything came from nothing"? In which case i'd say we don't know what happened at the very beginning, and we may never know, but very few think 'it came from nothing'.

If it's about the entropy then ashley.hunt60 is right, it has very much to do with the expansion of the universe. You could say the expansion is an 'outside influence' on the closed system that is the universe (which may not be closed, but as we can't see beyond the horizon this question has yet to be answered by cosmologists).

I could try to be more spesific, but it would be easier to put things in layman-terms if i knew exactly what you want to know Smile
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25-04-2011, 07:55 AM
RE: 2nd law of thermodynamcs <> Big Bang
I read an essay on this once in a book called "101 things you don't know about science and no one else does either." This book is a collection of essays across multiple sciences and one of them was of course on the Big Bang. It is hypothesized that it is possible for something to come from nothing and not violate the laws of nature as long as when a particle of matter arises a particle of antimatter arises as well (in doing so there is not net gain of matter or energy). The two particles would then cancel each other out in a burst of energy and it could have been this process happening constantly over some period of "time" that caused the Big Bang. There are obvious problems with this but hopefully the LHC will shed more light on it. The first problem is where is all the antimatter? The second problem is that there is assumed to have been some boundary around this "nothing" that acted like a balloon that "popped" creating the Big Bang. What was this boundary? Where is it now? It is an interesting concept and we are only beginning to explore it. So exciting!!!!

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