3 questions for atheists
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19-01-2014, 02:26 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(18-01-2014 03:07 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(17-01-2014 12:50 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Have you got any links/footnotes which backup your claim of your use of the word being used academically? Intellectually is a little bit more subjecticould sawould like to see some use of the term in this way.

I work over the weekend mate. I'll take a look this afternoon and come back to you on it.

http://www.academia.edu/311917/An_Agnostic_Theology
This first link is from an academic community/essay bank type thingy, I have put in as an example piece where the writer discusses agnostic theism and agnostic atheism... if you browse essay banks yourself, you'll find hundreds of examples. I have only given one. I could say something snotty about not doing your leg work for you, or be totally honest and tell you I'm just lazy as fuck. Hahaha

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
This I have included so you can open the history tab and do some routing about yourself. Look in to Robert Flint, Croall lectures 1887 - 1888, published 1903. He coins the term atheistic agnosticism there.

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.co.uk/200...c.html?m=1
Here is the noted young published academic Richard Carrier in his blog explaining his stance on stupid hair splitting word games and why whether we like it or not, unbelievers are both agnostic and atheist.

There's a wealth of information out there. I don't personally disagree with you that the original use of the term agnostic from Huxley was meant to be incompatible with atheism. Where we seem to differ is that I accept that the idea, the meaning behind and the use of the word have evolved. You seem to see fit to apply the original use. Swings and roundabouts mate.

Still, I get the sense that you will not be moved on your position nor I on mine. For me, reading what I have and knowing what I know, I cannot agree with you or offer you any concession on my part other than to agree to disagree.

Sincererly, all the best! Big Grin.
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I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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19-01-2014, 04:25 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
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19-01-2014, 07:33 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(19-01-2014 04:25 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  [Image: drop-the-gun-or-else-ill-shoot.jpg]

I believe this post to be aimed at me in good humour! Big Grin
I agree but I promised I'd get back to him! Angel

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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19-01-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(18-01-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 08:10 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You strive to be skeptical of everything, which includes your ability to be skeptical and the ability for information to be found/known. There is nothing wrong with the answer, you don't know, in fact it's wiser and more accurate than stating you know a limit exists.

Are you going to give any explanation about a one phrase comment you state?

Ok, but I've probably said this all before.

I don't believe that we can know the reason or cause for our existence. We are simply a product of the environment (the universe) we are looking to observe and then rationalise not only our existence, but the environment which created us. It seems incredibly presumptuous to assume we can analyse what created us and provide an accurate account of it. The intelligibility of the universe does not lead me to believe that we can go beyond what we observe, or ever have observed. We may be viewing it 100% correctly but only assessing 1% of it, or a myriad of various other variables. The pretence of assessment and observation can lead to universe shattering discovery is just that, would should I believe otherwise? To attempt the rationalisation of everything you require a foundation.

How do you differentiate between the unknown and the unknowable? To me the unknown can be known, while unknowable is a constant state and will never be known. Making a claim that something is unknown is as much as a statement as unknowable. Or are you going to take the ground of it's unknown whether it's unknown? Then you enter Donald Rumsfeld territory which is just bullshit really, and you may as well not say anything about it.

I find it odd that many here state I need to rationalise this claim of it being unknowable. If you prove it is, I will change my mind until then I see no reason, based on human history and what science is, and seeks to do, to assume we will find anything out.

I see no reason to define my position based on a lack of belief in someone else's claim. Atheism traditionally negates a god, taking this label into an inactive position by asserting your lack of belief, which you actively claim yourself to be serves no purpose, unless you're anti-theist. I would be interested if you are sceptical of other things, away from this area. There are many things we believe to be true, but don't know for sure. So the know/belief divide is sometimes too grey to even bother.

I also believe some atheists are attempting to appear logical by the constant accusation of various fallacies. The use of these is stale, being sceptical requires that you CAN assess reality correctly, for some reason you're not sceptical of that. And if you are, why? Sooner or later you need to commit to something o just don't enter the fray.

The problem with your argument is that you are declaring, without any evidence, that a particular unknown is unknowable. I dismiss your claim.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(19-01-2014 01:54 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 01:07 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  The sincerity of what? My position?

Troll it is. Thanks for your time, beyond all the shit you've excreted, at least we had some laughs.
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Noooo don't go. Why won't you love me?

Anyhoo still don't get why you'd identify as an atheist.

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19-01-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(19-01-2014 07:33 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 04:25 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  [Image: drop-the-gun-or-else-ill-shoot.jpg]

I believe this post to be aimed at me in good humour! Big Grin
I agree but I promised I'd get back to him! Angel

I just thought it fit with the tone of the thread. Wasn't really aimed at anybody in particular. Fantastic movie tho... In Bruges.
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19-01-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(19-01-2014 12:44 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 07:33 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I believe this post to be aimed at me in good humour! Big Grin
I agree but I promised I'd get back to him! Angel

I just thought it fit with the tone of the thread. Wasn't really aimed at anybody in particular. Fantastic movie tho... In Bruges.




It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-01-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
Lol! What movie is that?

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19-01-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(19-01-2014 08:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 08:23 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Ok, but I've probably said this all before.

I don't believe that we can know the reason or cause for our existence. We are simply a product of the environment (the universe) we are looking to observe and then rationalise not only our existence, but the environment which created us. It seems incredibly presumptuous to assume we can analyse what created us and provide an accurate account of it. The intelligibility of the universe does not lead me to believe that we can go beyond what we observe, or ever have observed. We may be viewing it 100% correctly but only assessing 1% of it, or a myriad of various other variables. The pretence of assessment and observation can lead to universe shattering discovery is just that, would should I believe otherwise? To attempt the rationalisation of everything you require a foundation.

How do you differentiate between the unknown and the unknowable? To me the unknown can be known, while unknowable is a constant state and will never be known. Making a claim that something is unknown is as much as a statement as unknowable. Or are you going to take the ground of it's unknown whether it's unknown? Then you enter Donald Rumsfeld territory which is just bullshit really, and you may as well not say anything about it.

I find it odd that many here state I need to rationalise this claim of it being unknowable. If you prove it is, I will change my mind until then I see no reason, based on human history and what science is, and seeks to do, to assume we will find anything out.

I see no reason to define my position based on a lack of belief in someone else's claim. Atheism traditionally negates a god, taking this label into an inactive position by asserting your lack of belief, which you actively claim yourself to be serves no purpose, unless you're anti-theist. I would be interested if you are sceptical of other things, away from this area. There are many things we believe to be true, but don't know for sure. So the know/belief divide is sometimes too grey to even bother.

I also believe some atheists are attempting to appear logical by the constant accusation of various fallacies. The use of these is stale, being sceptical requires that you CAN assess reality correctly, for some reason you're not sceptical of that. And if you are, why? Sooner or later you need to commit to something o just don't enter the fray.

The problem with your argument is that you are declaring, without any evidence, that a particular unknown is unknowable. I dismiss your claim.

Of course you dismiss it you require evidence that it's unknowable. Perhaps you can outline how you would ever accept this claim?
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19-01-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(19-01-2014 01:19 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Lol! What movie is that?

Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles (1974). VERY campy.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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