3 questions for atheists
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 8 Votes - 1.5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-01-2014, 02:21 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:13 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 02:06 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Some even deny having beliefs and this naive belief is itself demonstrative of my point.

When it comes down to the crux of what beliefs I may or may not hold, I do agree with the...."tenets" of nihilism. Tell me I am wrong in holding that position.

It depends on what you mean by nihilism. Do you mean the word in the same way that Nietzche uses it or do you mean the pop-philosophy caricature that so many mistake for Nietzche's view?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2014, 02:30 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:06 AM)Chippy Wrote:  most people on this forum do just operate at the level of prejudice and are entirely incapable of providing any sort of rational justification for their atheism or most of the other beliefs they hold.

I've been an atheist for about a year now. I'd like you, chippy, as an atheist to tell me exactly what it is I should base my day to day knowledge, my etymology, my understanding of anthropology, archeology, epistemology, and./or every other piece of a worldview that I should have in order to hold the perfect worldview that I should in order to meet your standard. Because if I could hold your knowledge, I surely would. But I don't. I only have my piss poor education, and life experiences to go on. Forgive me for speaking on what I know.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2014, 02:33 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:21 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 02:13 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  When it comes down to the crux of what beliefs I may or may not hold, I do agree with the...."tenets" of nihilism. Tell me I am wrong in holding that position.

It depends on what you mean by nihilism. Do you mean the word in the same way that Nietzche uses it or do you mean the pop-philosophy caricature that so many mistake for Nietzche's view?

I don't know. I mean it as to how I define the term myself, which isn't completely formed by Nietzche or pop philosophy. I apologize for not having a written out definition.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2014, 02:45 AM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 02:53 AM by Monster_Riffs.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
Whilst this thread is an utter cluster fuck of abuse, there have been some excellent posts that give food for thought. I seem to be saying this often on here but again ... I only speak for myself, so...

EH and Chippy, please could you post definitions or links for the tenets of nihilism?
Chippy, in your view, is agnostic atheism a reasonable position, or as Brownshirt holds to, does an atheist position make agnosticism impossible?

I actually agree that we hold beliefs and have offered this concession previously. It is my view that agnostic atheism is not the basis for these but my anti-theism. Chippy, EH and Brownshirt, do you think this is reasonable?

Also Brownshirt, I did get back to you on p115. It is my view that there is more scope for the term agnostic than you accept. I don't know a lot about him, I have only encountered him for the first time through discussion on this thread but I would like your views on Flints coining of the term atheist agnostic?

Thanks guys.

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2014, 02:53 AM
Re: RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 12:06 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 08:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  No you honestly don't know how to make questions not having assertions in them.

Can materialism be proven wrong?

And

How would you expect materialism to be proven wrong?

Another example, your question 2) what's the purpose of atheism?

Are two different styles of questioning. You repeatedly use the latter two involve assumptions the party being asked expects or proclaims to expect something/meaning existing.

I don't expect evidence to be present, I've told you over and over yet you can't comprehend that apparently. That's why you find it makes no sense, you keep wanting to ad things to it that aren't there.

The position is to not expect, not presume, and not assert claims. If a wave of information that pertained to supernatural immaterial origins was recognized, I would recognize it but still skeptical of knowing what it was, whether it was knowable what it was, and how to proceed from that point.

if you really believe that, why do you consider yourself to be an atheist, due to your lack of belief?

[Image: post-34715-Jim-Carrey--Oh-Come-On-gif-WgEv.gif]

Explained that a page ago.

Because I am one and I hope, not sure it will come to be, the more people acknowledging atheism/non,belief is growing will begin to challenge their thoughts on all positions.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2014, 03:10 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:53 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 12:06 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  if you really believe that, why do you consider yourself to be an atheist, due to your lack of belief?

[Image: post-34715-Jim-Carrey--Oh-Come-On-gif-WgEv.gif]

Explained that a page ago.

Because I am one and I hope, not sure it will come to be, the more people acknowledging atheism/non,belief is growing will begin to challenge their thoughts on all positions.

Ok I will never get the atheist who lacks belief. I lack belief in a religion but don't identify as an atheist. I don't see why I would. I could imagine theists using it as a pejorative, or those who negate a god, but anyway.

I think this topic is quite different to most, granted theiss who move away from religion will reassess their positions in many areas, i don't think this is applicable otherwise.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Brownshirt's post
20-01-2014, 03:22 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:45 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Whilst this thread is an utter cluster fuck of abuse, there have been some excellent posts that give food for thought. I seem to be saying this often on here but again ... I only speak for myself, so...

EH and Chippy, please could you post definitions or links for the tenets of nihilism?
Chippy, in your view, is agnostic atheism a reasonable position, or as Brownshirt holds to, does an atheist position make agnosticism impossible?

I actually agree that we hold beliefs and have offered this concession previously. It is my view that agnostic atheism is not the basis for these but my anti-theism. Chippy, EH and Brownshirt, do you think this is reasonable?

i can't see how someone would take the label of atheism unless you wanted to be antagonistic to theists. I lack belief but don't define my position based on what i don't do.

Quote:Also Brownshirt, I did get back to you on p115. It is my view that there is more scope for the term agnostic than you accept. I don't know a lot about him, I have only encountered him for the first time through discussion on this thread but I would like your views on Flints coining of the term atheist agnostic?

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I understand your view on the word, it just differs from mine.

I still see them as very different, I understand his position and just disagree between the separation between knowledge and belief. And that agnosticism is based on what you know, not your ability to know.

Why would you know a god exists, but be an atheist. Based on this separation of knowledge and belief, this option is possible, but a contradiction.

Thanks guys.
[/quote]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2014, 03:23 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 03:22 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 02:45 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Whilst this thread is an utter cluster fuck of abuse, there have been some excellent posts that give food for thought. I seem to be saying this often on here but again ... I only speak for myself, so...

EH and Chippy, please could you post definitions or links for the tenets of nihilism?
Chippy, in your view, is agnostic atheism a reasonable position, or as Brownshirt holds to, does an atheist position make agnosticism impossible?

I actually agree that we hold beliefs and have offered this concession previously. It is my view that agnostic atheism is not the basis for these but my anti-theism. Chippy, EH and Brownshirt, do you think this is reasonable?

i can't see how someone would take the label of atheism unless you wanted to be antagonistic to theists. I lack belief but don't define my position based on what i don't do.

Quote:Also Brownshirt, I did get back to you on p115. It is my view that there is more scope for the term agnostic than you accept. I don't know a lot about him, I have only encountered him for the first time through discussion on this thread but I would like your views on Flints coining of the term atheist agnostic?

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I understand your view on the word, it just differs from mine.

I still see them as very different, I understand his position and just disagree between the separation between knowledge and belief. And that agnosticism is based on what you know, not your ability to know.

Why would you know a god exists, but be an atheist. Based on this separation of knowledge and belief, this option is possible, but a contradiction.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Brownshirt's post
20-01-2014, 05:01 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:30 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  I've been an atheist for about a year now. I'd like you, chippy, as an atheist to tell me exactly what it is I should base my day to day knowledge, my etymology, my understanding of anthropology, archeology, epistemology, and./or every other piece of a worldview that I should have in order to hold the perfect worldview that I should in order to meet your standard. Because if I could hold your knowledge, I surely would. But I don't. I only have my piss poor education, and life experiences to go on. Forgive me for speaking on what I know.

Perfection is elusive so I would neither strive for nor claim perfection. Goodness is sufficient; and the idea of perfection contradicts a fundamental epistemological principle in my worldview: fallibilism.

This is a rough breakdown of my worldview. It has gaps and uncertainties but since it isn't a dogma that isn't a problem:

epistemology:- scientific realism, epistemological realism, fallibilism
metaphysics:- scientific realism, naturalism
ontology:- scientific realism, ontological realism, naturalism
aesthetics:- ?
ethics:- ? possibly virtue ethics
axiology:- truth and knowledge; moral?; political? freedom
agency (free will/determinism):- compatibilism
philosophy of mind:- functionalism?
philosophy of language:- semantic externalism
methodology:- naturalism
political philosophy:- classical liberalism?
philosophy of mathematics:- fictionalism

Consistent with fallibilism. any and all parts are open to revision.

Hope this helps.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Chippy's post
20-01-2014, 05:33 AM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2014 05:39 AM by Chippy.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(20-01-2014 02:45 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Chippy, in your view, is agnostic atheism a reasonable position, or as Brownshirt holds to, does an atheist position make agnosticism impossible?

That depends on whether any conceptions of deity are logically coherent. Some appear to be so they are at least logically possible. But given the problem of evil and the problem of divine hiddenness (as per Schellenberg) these deities, although logically possible, are highly improbable. The question then resolves to whether agnosticism or atheism is most appropriate for these logically possible but highly improbable deities. Consistent with fallibilism I would suggest that an agnostic disposition is apt. The predictable response is: Are you also agnostic about Zeus, FSM etc? The short answer to that is yes but with the qualification that these deities are even less probable than the highly improbable deities because they are unparsimonious.

The net result is that I am effectively atheistic, i.e. the probability of any deity (that is logically coherent and parsimonious) being real is so small that it has no practical influence on any aspect of my worldview. But in strict terms I am agnostic--I don't claim certitude where I am unable to justify it. The only good reason that I can think of to claim certitude is to be an ignostic (or igtheist). If you are able to successfully show that all conceptions of deity are logically incoherent then no god is logically possible and the probability of any god existing becomes 0. I remain unconvinced of igtheism (as do the majority of atheistic philosophers of religion).

Quote:I actually agree that we hold beliefs and have offered this concession previously. It is my view that agnostic atheism is not the basis for these but my anti-theism. Chippy, EH and Brownshirt, do you think this is reasonable?

No, unless you demonstrate that ignosticism is sound.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Chippy's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: