3 questions for atheists
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08-01-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 06:24 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 04:38 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  I figured you knew I was talking about an unknowable god. I use the term god as a concept, it's interchangeable with deity, creator whatever.

"I have no viewpoints on something I can't comprehend" illustrates an agnostic perspective and hopefully you understand the difference between "not knowing" and this.

Oh boy, I can foresee this heading into igtheist territory.

So, yes, the contention seems to be mostly semantics. I don't think it's fair to automatically assume that "atheist" encompasses a lack of belief in an epistemologically unknowable god because I'm not an advocate for giving labels to epistemological unknowables. You give an epistemological unknowable a label and all of the sudden you've given it a form to attach conceptions to, and I don't think I need to explain why that doesn't work.

I consider myself an atheist in regards to the very much humanly conceived images of deities which most certainly do not fall under the category of "epistemological unknowable," and that's what I've always conceived the word "atheist" to entail. If you must have a breakdown:

Psychologically, I am atheist---I do not worry about the existence of gods or concern myself with them in my day to day routine or how these hypothetical beings would react to my actions, because I don't think they exist.
Logically, I am atheist---for all logical pathways I follow and all evidence presented to me point in the direction of gods being manmade constructs with no basis in external reality.
Epistemologically, I am agnostic---1. Even though I consider them logically invalid, there is always a chance, no matter how small, that they could exist regardless ( I just don't think it's rational to assume they do). 2. The case of unknowable gods, which I have no opinion on since I can't have one (although as I've said, I don't think it's justifiable to give such entities/forces/whatever-ma-bobs the label "god" at this point).

Hence I consider myself agnostic atheist or if you still really have problems with that you can interchange it with weak atheist.

Is everything clear now?


I think atheist does automatically dismiss any form of god defined or undefined. There's no evidence for an undefined god either, so I would presume you would lack belief as well?

Some might describe me as an atheist as I don't live my life based on religious dogma, go to church, prey etc. I simply do not describe myself based on what someone else does, it makes no sense. You could also call me a non-latte drinker, but why would you? Atheist seems terribly anachronistic there's nothing to rebel against anymore.

I don't get how you separate logic and epistemology, you use logic to develop your epistemology. If you're agnostic you make no claims on the ability to assess chance.
You seem to be working on the assumption as you're 99.99% sure a teapot isn't revolving around the moon, you're agnostic. If you work on that basis you virtually know nothing. It still makes the tag worthless.

What should I call the thing a me bobs then, deity is a concept, nothing more. People may give it different attributes based on their own perception of what is must be, I make no assumptions about that. Actually that's not true, I would say a deity is a cause of "what is", if it exists.

If someone is gnostic anything, you would either think them mad or illogical. So this is not a worthwhile tag either.
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08-01-2014, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2014 07:48 PM by Brownshirt.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 06:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 06:01 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Iit's believing that a position cannot be taken, not withholding one.

And you continue to ignore two facts.

First, that you are talking about a knowledge position, not a belief position.

Second, that atheism is a belief position, not a knowledge position.

They are on orthogonal scales.

They are not facts, they're claims by atheists. Show me a dictionary definition which says agnosticism is that you don't know. That's so simplified.
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08-01-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 06:27 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Do humans invent gods = yes 100% true

Is there any evidence for supernatural now we have technology to test / record peoples fantastic claims. = no

The agnostic position became no longer tenable to me
And most I talk to admit its just easier to say agnostic to avoid persecution by theists. (Atheists don't fire employees for being honest)

I can understand that if you want to keep a job, fair enough.

Why was agnosticism not tenable for you?
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08-01-2014, 08:02 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 12:39 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 08:44 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Quite funny coming from the guy who's filling up the forum with strawmen.



LOL and I suppose everyone else here "should" be banned from using the words "atheist" and "agnostic" Too bad for you that you don't run the world. You would be able to enforce your equivocations. Laughat


Various fallacies and ad hominem attacks are all you can contribute, yes, and they are quite dull, as are you.
You have nothing to say.

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08-01-2014, 08:12 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 05:58 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 05:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  No one is actually disagreeing with your position. Consider

The definition of agnostic is simply broader than you are willing to accept.
When I say I am an agnostic atheist, it is clear to most what is meant, and both of those words follow the dictionary definitions.

So you can be as upset as you want about this, but that has absolutely no impact on me.

i'm not upset, just letting you know I disagree. You want to change (not broaden) what the word means.

Liar. You said several pages back that it makes you angry.Laughat

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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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08-01-2014, 08:15 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2014 08:23 PM by Brownshirt.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 08:02 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 12:39 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  You have nothing to say.

[Image: your_argument_is_invalid_5566.jpg]

[Image: 938-oh-u.jpg]

(08-01-2014 08:12 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Liar. You said several pages back that it makes you angry.Laughat

Hyperbole, scrotal scalp.

(08-01-2014 08:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 07:06 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  we have no evidence to account for existence, without some sort of prime mover. Or we can believe existence (not the big bang) is infinite.

We are not required, as atheists, to hold to either of those positions. Nor are we required to take them into account at all.

What's your point? Tell me you have one.
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08-01-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 07:06 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  we have no evidence to account for existence, without some sort of prime mover. Or we can believe existence (not the big bang) is infinite.

We are not required, as atheists, to hold to either of those positions. Nor are we required to take them into account at all.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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08-01-2014, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2014 08:25 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 07:42 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  I think atheist does automatically dismiss any form of god defined or undefined. There's no evidence for an undefined god either, so I would presume you would lack belief as well?

I don't really care either way. Not believing in something defined and having no opinion on something undefined don't really seem to differ much in terms of psychological state to me. If you are that dedicated to splitting hairs over something that results in such trivial difference of psychological preoccupancy with a concept (barring being an atheist activist) then go ahead an have at it. I don't see the point though.

Quote:Some might describe me as an atheist as I don't live my life based on religious dogma, go to church, prey etc. I simply do not describe myself based on what someone else does, it makes no sense. You could also call me a non-latte drinker, but why would you? Atheist seems terribly anachronistic there's nothing to rebel against anymore.

I don't use the term "atheist" to rebel. I am not an anti-theist. I am however, anti-fundamentalist.

Quote:I don't get how you separate logic and epistemology, you use logic to develop your epistemology. If you're agnostic you make no claims on the ability to assess chance.
You seem to be working on the assumption as you're 99.99% sure a teapot isn't revolving around the moon, you're agnostic. If you work on that basis you virtually know nothing. It still makes the tag worthless.
Because even though I have logically deduced them to be logically invalid, I am a fallible creature. And yes, we virtually "know" nothing if you mean "know" in the sense of absolute certainty. I simply reject this notion of yours that it's impossible to develop a position on something that falls into the realm of human comprehension simply by claiming knowledge on it is "unknowable." Why is knowledge on humanly conceived deities "unknowable?" If you are making the claim that we can't know for certain, then right on. If not, then what's the fucking point? Might as well claim that you can't take a position on any matter at all if any conceivable thing will always fall under unknowable (and then agnostic really IS a worthless tag since it would be the only justifiable choice for anything). What's your criteria for defining something as unknowable? It's clearly not just epistemologically unknowable gods, because I have no qualms with you on that (other than the labeling) and yet we still seem to be in a disagreement on something.

Quote:What should I call the thing a me bobs then, deity is a concept, nothing more. People may give it different attributes based on their own perception of what is must be, I make no assumptions about that. Actually that's not true, I would say a deity is a cause of "what is", if it exists.

And here comes the topic of ightheism! What is a god? You and I seem to have two separate ideas pop in our heads first at the mention of that word, as does everyone else. And for the record, you do seem the make the assumption that it's not "knowable." If the conditions are self-evidently unknowable (ie: epistemological unknowable by default), then fine, but what about ones that aren't, by default, epistemological unknowables? What about a case by case basis? Are you agnostic in regards to all gods, and that by default ALL gods fall under the category of unknowable? Because if so this seems to be a major source of disagreement between us.

Quote:If someone is gnostic anything, you would either think them mad or illogical. So this is not a worthwhile tag either.

Sure, you and I would, but they would feel different about it. Drinking Beverage

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08-01-2014, 08:20 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 08:15 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 08:02 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  [Image: your_argument_is_invalid_5566.jpg]

[Image: 938-oh-u.jpg]

(08-01-2014 08:12 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Liar. You said several pages back that it makes you angry.Laughat

Hyperbole, scrotal scalp.

Keep talking. All you are doing is proving what an idiot you are.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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08-01-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 08:20 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 08:15 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  [Image: 938-oh-u.jpg]


Hyperbole, scrotal scalp.

Keep talking. All you are doing is proving what an idiot you are.

Are you going to bark all day?

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