3 questions for atheists
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09-01-2014, 06:06 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 09:14 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Of course you would. If it falls into the realm of human comprehension, it would no longer be unknowable. You want me to tell you a conceivable thing which is unknowable? The "fucking point" is I don't proclaim the ability to possess the ability to know. Lack of evidence doesn't provide evidence for anything, either way. I'm not saying humanly conceived deities are unknowable, I'm saying I believe the riddle of existence in general is unknowable. This includes/precludes a deity.

Do you believe that existence has an answer (a cause)? I'm not implying a deity, it could be random too, but why can we not consider that as a byproduct of the universe that we might not ever solve it.

I am not claiming that the 'riddle of existence' is knowable or not knowable. But you are now making a claim that it is, in fact, unknowable.

That is the root of the problem. You have made two assumptions all along:
  • That the 'riddle of existence' or the existence of a deity is unknowable, and
  • that atheists claim that it is knowable.

I disagree with both of your assumptions. On the first, I am agnostic; on the second, you are simply incorrect.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-01-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 12:49 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 10:07 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I thought no such thing. But I am addressing you. Deal with it.

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^^^^ Brownshit's admission of defeat.

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09-01-2014, 08:26 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2014 08:42 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 06:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  [*]that atheists claim that it is knowable.

^^^ Which is one of the main Strawmen I keep hammering on the moron for. But he doesn't want to talk about that. Hobo Laughat

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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09-01-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(08-01-2014 09:14 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Do you believe that existence has an answer (a cause)?

Conservation of entropy. A tendency, not a cause. And why are you still here?

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09-01-2014, 09:39 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2014 09:42 AM by Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver.)
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(28-12-2013 12:36 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  1. Why do you have an active lack of belief? The position comes across as one who wants to be recognised as one who negates any form of god but not have to prove anything.

I can easily flip this one around on you: Why do you have an active BELIEF in a God? What proof can you cite that there is a supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent being that brought the universe into being and runs it?

Your response to my rhetorical question answers your original question: Because I simply haven't encountered any evidence of God or a god and, given the proponderence of the data against God's existence I have simply concluded that God or a god(s), in all probability don't exist and the probablity that He/She/It does exist is so slim it doesn't warrant any further investment of my time, labor or money into further investigating the possibility.

Quote:2. What is the purpose of atheism?

In its purest form, Atheism is a response to an assertion. Theists, believers and the religious are making a claim that God exists; we are simply evaluating the evidence and the current conclusion is that there is simply no evidence which has been presented to convince me there is a God.

Quote:3. Why believe evidence is (or will be) available to confirm or negate a god?

Because 1) that is the process of science and 2) science, unlike religion, delivers accurate, repeatable, demonstrable results. Tetracycline saves the life of a person dying from cholera based of the process of medical science. Airplanes can fly because their design is based on thousands of scientific theories. Broomsticks and magic carpets, which are claimed by folklore to fly, cannot do so in reality. To quote Richard Dawkins "Gravity isn't but one version of the truth, it is THE truth. And anyone who doesn't believe in it is welcome to throw themselves off a ten story building."

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09-01-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 01:37 AM)sporehux Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 09:52 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  How do you propose that you are in any position to assess what is probable. Also 49% does not equal invalid.

Reading the bible has nothing to do with validating it.
I have a personal relationship with probability.

Reading the bible is a major cause of Atheism especially if you compare it to Gilgamesh and other pre monotheism religions.

So how do you propose to validate it without reading it do tell.
G

I don't think it's possible. The best you can do is validate the historical sources, and all you'll get from that is that Jesus existed , if you focus on Christianity for example.

I have no idea have you deemed yourself able to determine the probability, I would assume that if a god exists then you must be able to find evidence of it.

If a god exists I wouldn't expect it to be hovering around IN its own creation, would you?
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09-01-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 06:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 09:14 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Of course you would. If it falls into the realm of human comprehension, it would no longer be unknowable. You want me to tell you a conceivable thing which is unknowable? The "fucking point" is I don't proclaim the ability to possess the ability to know. Lack of evidence doesn't provide evidence for anything, either way. I'm not saying humanly conceived deities are unknowable, I'm saying I believe the riddle of existence in general is unknowable. This includes/precludes a deity.

Do you believe that existence has an answer (a cause)? I'm not implying a deity, it could be random too, but why can we not consider that as a byproduct of the universe that we might not ever solve it.

I am not claiming that the 'riddle of existence' is knowable or not knowable. But you are now making a claim that it is, in fact, unknowable.

Yes that is what agnosticism is. If you think this separates you from agnosticism it will also misrepresent your position of it just being unknown.

If I'm wrong and are proven to be so, I will change my position on the riddle of existence being known What makes you think it's just unknown, what piece of evidence do you have which gives you the slightest inkling that it's just unknown and we're possibly just round the corner from discovering this secret.

We are a byproduct of a system, somehow we believe we transcend this and can assess the system itself. This approach constantly fails to consider that we are a byproduct of the system we're looking to find the answer for.

All you're doing is saying why all the time, but at the same time being anti-theist I don't have respect for it as a viable position.


Quote:That is the root of the problem. You have made two assumptions all along:
  • That the 'riddle of existence' or the existence of a deity is unknowable, and
  • that atheists claim that it is knowable.

I disagree with both of your assumptions. On the first, I am agnostic; on the second, you are simply incorrect.

You're asking me for proof that something is unknowable, you realise the ridiculous contradiction in this don't you? We have no evidence for any form of explanation, materialists will commonly assert evolution, the singularity etc. This just pushes us back one in a potentially infinite regress.

Show me something which gives you a reason to believe it can be knowable. This is as much of an assertion as anything.
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09-01-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 08:26 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-01-2014 06:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  [*]that atheists claim that it is knowable.

^^^ Which is one of the main Strawmen I keep hammering on the moron for. But he doesn't want to talk about that. Hobo Laughat

Excellent. Tell me why you believe it can be knowable? What evidence do you hold that tells you this?
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09-01-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 08:56 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(08-01-2014 09:14 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Do you believe that existence has an answer (a cause)?

Conservation of entropy. A tendency, not a cause. And why are you still here?

Is this an existential question?

A "tendency"? Could you make that a little greyer please.
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09-01-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: 3 questions for atheists
(09-01-2014 09:39 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(28-12-2013 12:36 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  1. Why do you have an active lack of belief? The position comes across as one who wants to be recognised as one who negates any form of god but not have to prove anything.

Quote:I can easily flip this one around on you: Why do you have an active BELIEF in a God? What proof can you cite that there is a supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent being that brought the universe into being and runs it?

I don't, I'm agnostic. My beliefs don't come into it. I can't believe or disbelieve without having something to go on. We have nothing.

Your response to my rhetorical question answers your original question: Because I simply haven't encountered any evidence of God or a god and, given the proponderence of the data against God's existence I have simply concluded that God or a god(s), in all probability don't exist and the probablity that He/She/It does exist is so slim it doesn't warrant any further investment of my time, labor or money into further investigating the possibility.

Quote:2. What is the purpose of atheism?

In its purest form, Atheism is a response to an assertion. Theists, believers and the religious are making a claim that God exists; we are simply evaluating the evidence and the current conclusion is that there is simply no evidence which has been presented to convince me there is a God.

I can understand the logic behind the label of atheist, but why would you bother to identify as it? You're basing a label on someone else's position.

Quote:3. Why believe evidence is (or will be) available to confirm or negate a god?

Because 1) that is the process of science and 2) science, unlike religion, delivers accurate, repeatable, demonstrable results. Tetracycline saves the life of a person dying from cholera based of the process of medical science. Airplanes can fly because their design is based on thousands of scientific theories. Broomsticks and magic carpets, which are claimed by folklore to fly, cannot do so in reality. To quote Richard Dawkins "Gravity isn't but one version of the truth, it is THE truth. And anyone who doesn't believe in it is welcome to throw themselves off a ten story building."

So you believe science can account for existence. Why?
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