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01-08-2017, 10:26 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2017 10:42 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 09:44 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I soo wanted that to be true but found that some of them had churches with 2000 people. I looked up their church pages. It was around this time I was noticing that

1) Narcissists are attracted to being pastors

2) Some people are attracted to narcissists

It started to make me bitter because the biggest jerks were having churches that were consistently growing. The NICE pastors were stuck doing house churches. It took years for my head and heart to understand that the Alpha male - Omega male thing was real. God and the holy spirit had nothing to do with what churches failed or succeeded, it was charisma and an insatiable need to be the high priest in the room.

I'll start a church with you. I'm really itching to gear up to go all militant Christian badass on the current lot of hypocritical money changers in the temple calling themselves Christian when they're just using it as cover for the fact they are assholes. Many of them do not even realize the ramifications and implications of the ethical and moral standards demanded by their prophet. Only thing holding me back from reminding them is whether or not it's even worth the effort. ... but if it's a tax deduction, Consider ... well then. Smile

Seriously, how much does it cost to start a church? It looks like I can start a non-profit 501(3c) or a PAC in my State of the Peoples Republic of Maryland for like a couple $K in registration fees. I wonder if there are any costs or benefits with registering as a church?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-08-2017, 10:36 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 09:58 PM)Vera Wrote:  And this is how I actually first came across it. Used to think I agreed with Orwell on pretty much everything...

... and then found out he was kinda homophobic Confused

Good review of Dali, sounds like Orwell has him pegged. A prudish review, but I kind of prudishly agree regarding a lot of modern art...it's art, it's complex, it's deep, it's...uh, wait a second, it's a bunch of paint splattered on a canvas like a five year old. (though Orwell concedes that Dali has a ton of talent, just "nothing above the elbow"!) The use of "Benefit of Clergy" is dead on. A privileged class immune from criticism...priests, elitist artists...hmm this list could go on...sports heroes...actors and actresses...

Regarding the homophobia, can't comment...based on that essay he sounds like he has a general disdain for anything not the missionary position between man and woman and for God's sake turn out the lights.
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01-08-2017, 11:24 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2017 12:21 AM by Oaken.)
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 10:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 09:44 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I soo wanted that to be true but found that some of them had churches with 2000 people. I looked up their church pages. It was around this time I was noticing that

1) Narcissists are attracted to being pastors

2) Some people are attracted to narcissists

It started to make me bitter because the biggest jerks were having churches that were consistently growing. The NICE pastors were stuck doing house churches. It took years for my head and heart to understand that the Alpha male - Omega male thing was real. God and the holy spirit had nothing to do with what churches failed or succeeded, it was charisma and an insatiable need to be the high priest in the room.

I'll start a church with you. I'm really itching to gear up to go all militant Christian badass on the current lot of hypocritical money changers in the temple calling themselves Christian when they're just using it as cover for the fact they are assholes. Many of them do not even realize the ramifications and implications of the ethical and moral standards demanded by their prophet. Only thing holding me back from reminding them is whether or not it's even worth the effort. ... but if it's a tax deduction, Consider ... well then. Smile

Seriously, how much does it cost to start a church? It looks like I can start a non-profit 501(3c) or a PAC in my State of the Peoples Republic of Maryland for like a couple $K in registration fees. I wonder if there are any costs or benefits with registering as a church?

I started a church for artists, writers, musicians and creative people once. (Sounds nice but I realize now how I was already developing a potential clique problem for when non-artistic people showed up.) Anyways, it was basically free to start, just paperwork in the county I wanted the church in. Oddly enough the space I rented was at an Assembly of God camp type area. (I forget the name) I went door to door, business to business and the witches, non-Christians and wounded people loved the idea....but would never come. The people who did come were impacted creatives who (I think) wanted an obstacle course of having to prove themselves worthy. They expected me to have a secret handshake and when I simply accepted them as they were they quickly lost interest. In fact, I actually would let people get up at the pulpit and speak their very first time in the door! I realize now I was reeling from pain at the hand of narcissistic pastors and so I tried to be unlike them. (My AG family contact practically swallowed his tongue when I told him I let a new person preach from the pulpit on his first visit.)

Interestingly enough, because I had nothing hidden or needing to be earned there was NO VALUE or WORTH to what I was offering. It wasn't exclusive. People wanted to earn a place. To work for it. I had to learn that artists, writers, musicians, and creative people were either too intelligent for church, or wanted a "platform" to launch their brand. I couldn't offer any of that. I learned that virtually NOTHING about the church had to do with anything actually spiritual. It was all about society and place and rank.

The narcissists on pastors.net are LIVING PROOF of evolution. They show that the Alpha males who vigorously spread their seed are going to be the leaders with conquests and successes. Not that that makes it right. It is just evolution and nature. Learning about evolution helped heal the pain caused by religion. Jesus was the WORST WORST WORST example to follow. He stole decades from my life. Nothing but an Beta male maker in an Alpha male religion. I find that narcissistic types tend to gravitate more towards Paul worship than trying to be like Jesus. And Paul knew how to work a crowd and beat his chest, all while proclaiming how humble he was. Sigh.

"If all the historic books of the Bible were blotted from the memory of mankind, nothing of value would be lost."

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01-08-2017, 11:33 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 11:24 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I went door to door, business to business and the witches, non-Christians and wounded people loved the idea....but would never come.

Fascinating. I'm thinking instead of them coming to us, we'd go to them them all Holy Ghost like through the YouTube who I think would pay us in tax free dollars based on the number of people we touch with the Spirit of God.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-08-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 10:36 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 09:58 PM)Vera Wrote:  And this is how I actually first came across it. Used to think I agreed with Orwell on pretty much everything...

... and then found out he was kinda homophobic Confused

Good review of Dali, sounds like Orwell has him pegged. A prudish review, but I kind of prudishly agree regarding a lot of modern art...it's art, it's complex, it's deep, it's...uh, wait a second, it's a bunch of paint splattered on a canvas like a five year old. (though Orwell concedes that Dali has a ton of talent, just "nothing above the elbow"!) The use of "Benefit of Clergy" is dead on. A privileged class immune from criticism...priests, elitist artists...hmm this list could go on...sports heroes...actors and actresses...

Regarding the homophobia, can't comment...based on that essay he sounds like he has a general disdain for anything not the missionary position between man and woman and for God's sake turn out the lights.

That Benefit of Clergy info is brilliant. I am SO happy to have been shown that today. It explains how my family's pastor acts and thinks. Years ago we sold the house we lived in for 40 years to our pastor. He promised to take care of it. My family had a good reputation in the neighborhood. In fact, we hadn't even had a disagreement with a neighbor in decades. Well, we move out and the pastor moved in and immediately started getting into arguments with the neighbors. He parked a full size yellow school bus, an extended sized church van, an SUV, a car, and a trailer on the street. He literally took up the entire block!!!! His vehicles stretched on past FIVE houses!! When neighbors tried to politely and sheepishly go to his door he would yell at them. I tried one day to tell the pastor that he couldn't do that and he said that he could take as much parking as he wanted and that there was nothing that people could do. Well, those people did something alright. Eventually someone slashed the pastor's tires. Sure enough, the pastor cried out on Facebook about persecution and posted pictures of the slashed tires. He then called the police and even had someone arrested. He was recently in another feud with a different neighbor because he didn't like the neighbors motorcycle starting up. Benefit of Clergy INDEED!

(This pastor now has a DOCTORATE and has the biggest church in my city. SMH.)

"If all the historic books of the Bible were blotted from the memory of mankind, nothing of value would be lost."

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02-08-2017, 03:17 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
Welcome to reason!!
Though we do have nasty arguments on here too. It just depends on the section and the people in the thread.
Generally though, you picked a good place here. Most people here are reasonable and considerate. At least as far as I found in my... what 4 years here (i think 4).




"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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02-08-2017, 10:19 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2017 12:34 PM by Vera.)
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 10:36 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Good review of Dali, sounds like Orwell has him pegged. A prudish review, but I kind of prudishly agree regarding a lot of modern art...it's art, it's complex, it's deep, it's...uh, wait a second, it's a bunch of paint splattered on a canvas like a five year old. (though Orwell concedes that Dali has a ton of talent, just "nothing above the elbow"!) The use of "Benefit of Clergy" is dead on. A privileged class immune from criticism...priests, elitist artists...hmm this list could go on...sports heroes...actors and actresses...

But also, that beauty (or talent, in this case) covers a multitude of sins (if you'll pardon the use of this vile word). In other words, talent excuses atrocious behaviour that would never have been tolerated in mere mortals.

And no, no it doesn't. The question is, can we separate the art from the artist and enjoy the former even if the latter is a vile POS?

In my case, at least, the answer is a rather resounding no. Which is why, I have no interest in - gasp! - Lovecraft (life is too short to waste even a second on racists and the 'twas-different-times excuse does not cut it) or - another gasp! - Clapton (and not just because I like my blues much much older and, frankly, blacker). Just because you can pluck a string or two in no way, shape or form diminishes the vileness of this:

"[In] August 1976 Eric Clapton made a drunken declaration of support for former Conservative minister Enoch Powell (known for his anti-immigration Rivers of Blood speech) at a concert in Birmingham. Clapton told the crowd that England had "become overcrowded" and that they should vote for Powell to stop Britain from becoming "a black colony". He also told the audience that Britain should "get the foreigners out, get the wogs out, get the coons out", and then he repeatedly shouted the National Front slogan "Keep Britain White"."

The fact that he supposedly plays blues (not really, but let's not go there) just proves just how dumb on top of vile racists can be.


In a final twist of irony, the same kind of applies to Orwell himself... and yeah, I do agree with him on about 99% of what he says, but the homophobia... I don't know. You've gone and changed on me, Orwell, and things can never be the same Rolleyes

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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02-08-2017, 12:22 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 09:44 PM)Oaken Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 09:32 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Pastors.net sounds really awful. Maybe there were a bunch of trolls that weren't really legit pastors, just being dicks? I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt!

I soo wanted that to be true but found that some of them had churches with 2000 people. I looked up their church pages. It was around this time I was noticing that

1) Narcissists are attracted to being pastors

2) Some people are attracted to narcissists

It started to make me bitter because the biggest jerks were having churches that were consistently growing. The NICE pastors were stuck doing house churches. It took years for my head and heart to understand that the Alpha male - Omega male thing was real. God and the holy spirit had nothing to do with what churches failed or succeeded, it was charisma and an insatiable need to be the high priest in the room.

That extends beyond pastors, apparently. Look at Trump.
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02-08-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(02-08-2017 12:22 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 09:44 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I soo wanted that to be true but found that some of them had churches with 2000 people. I looked up their church pages. It was around this time I was noticing that

1) Narcissists are attracted to being pastors

2) Some people are attracted to narcissists

It started to make me bitter because the biggest jerks were having churches that were consistently growing. The NICE pastors were stuck doing house churches. It took years for my head and heart to understand that the Alpha male - Omega male thing was real. God and the holy spirit had nothing to do with what churches failed or succeeded, it was charisma and an insatiable need to be the high priest in the room.


That extends beyond pastors, apparently. Look at Trump.

Malignant Narcissism is pretty toxic. Alpha male leadership can be problematic as well even in the animal kingdom. Beta and Omega animals tend to have stressful lives. But churches profess to be so unlike the world. To the contrary, I think they represent the worst of it.

"If all the historic books of the Bible were blotted from the memory of mankind, nothing of value would be lost."

Robert Green Ingersoll
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02-08-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(02-08-2017 10:19 AM)Vera Wrote:  ...The question is, can we separate the art from the artist and enjoy the former even if the latter is a vile POS?

In my case, at least, the answer is a rather resounding no.

Yeah I agree, but it's tough, or maybe impossible, to be too systematic about it (for me anyway). It's like two lines: A line for how intensely I enjoy the entertainment, and a line for how awful the behavior of the entertainer is, and somewhere on my rubber chicken graph those two lines intersect. If it's a song I really enjoy, it's going to take a real asshole before I would not listen to the song. Sports on the other hand, I enjoy but I'm not real invested in it so I would have no trouble ignoring a team that had a rep for players that abuse women or are dicks in general.

Controlling what I pay for entertainment is way easier than controlling what I actually consume...I'm not going to financially support an ass.
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