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02-08-2017, 08:45 PM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 08:42 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I used to be a devout Christian (like I have said here before) and had some attempts at street ministries and starting my own church. I cannot explain the emotionally toxic and draining and shocking experience of posting on Christian forums and especially (drum roll please) my attempts to remain civil on PASTORS.NET. Man oh man oh man was that site a real pit of vipers. A site supposedly for pastors and almost daily but consistently weekly I would find myself deflecting snarky, underhanded, cliquish responses from "pastors" there. They were incredibly racist and sexist and joked about homosexuals dying of AIDS. When Hurricane Katrina hit the moderator joked about wanting to go to New Orleans to do some target practice (on looters) and bragged how he would kill anyone knocking on his door at that time. I got so tired of the way they triple teamed anyone not in their little circle, and the consistent and unnecessary way they posted mean spirited, insulting replies. Pastors.net is Rick Warren's site and for someone who is all about building mall like mega-churches you would have thought they would have expected more loving, supportive behavior from pastors. Nope. Atheism has already shown me a more loving, intelligent path. Christianity was and is a false light.


So, I am celebrating that I have posted 45 times on this THINKING ATHEIST FORUM and have not been in a single argument with anyone! (I guess that shows I would have made a sucky pastor after all. I just don't have it in me to be snarky and mean.) THANKS for the community here.

Thieves are the first to point the finger. That's what you experienced there, I think.
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03-08-2017, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 09:51 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(02-08-2017 10:19 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 10:36 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Good review of Dali, sounds like Orwell has him pegged. A prudish review, but I kind of prudishly agree regarding a lot of modern art...it's art, it's complex, it's deep, it's...uh, wait a second, it's a bunch of paint splattered on a canvas like a five year old. (though Orwell concedes that Dali has a ton of talent, just "nothing above the elbow"!) The use of "Benefit of Clergy" is dead on. A privileged class immune from criticism...priests, elitist artists...hmm this list could go on...sports heroes...actors and actresses...

But also, that beauty (or talent, in this case) covers a multitude of sins (if you'll pardon the use of this vile word). In other words, talent excuses atrocious behaviour that would never have been tolerated in mere mortals.

And no, no it doesn't. The question is, can we separate the art from the artist and enjoy the former even if the latter is a vile POS?

In my case, at least, the answer is a rather resounding no. Which is why, I have no interest in - gasp! - Lovecraft (life is too short to waste even a second on racists and the 'twas-different-times excuse does not cut it) or - another gasp! - Clapton (and not just because I like my blues much much older and, frankly, blacker). Just because you can pluck a string or two in no way, shape or form diminishes the vileness of this:

"[In] August 1976 Eric Clapton made a drunken declaration of support for former Conservative minister Enoch Powell (known for his anti-immigration Rivers of Blood speech) at a concert in Birmingham. Clapton told the crowd that England had "become overcrowded" and that they should vote for Powell to stop Britain from becoming "a black colony". He also told the audience that Britain should "get the foreigners out, get the wogs out, get the coons out", and then he repeatedly shouted the National Front slogan "Keep Britain White"."

The fact that he supposedly plays blues (not really, but let's not go there) just proves just how dumb on top of vile racists can be.


In a final twist of irony, the same kind of applies to Orwell himself... and yeah, I do agree with him on about 99% of what he says, but the homophobia... I don't know. You've gone and changed on me, Orwell, and things can never be the same Rolleyes

I don't know, I made up my mind long ago that I could and would separate the art from the artist. I fell in love with Clapton's music when I was a teenager (late 1960s/early 1970s), and I still think he is one of the best blues/rock guitarists, and that Layla is one of the best blues/rock albums. I'm a guitarist myself, and for years I tried to play just like Eric Clapton (never got there, though).

The first music I fell in love with was that of the Beatles. I have a friend (a devout Catholic) who stopped listening to them after John Lennon declared that they (the Beatles) were more popular than Jesus. My dad didn't want me to listen to them because they took drugs. They could be racist (the original third verse of "Get Back" expressed the same sentiments as Clapton's drunken rant) and mean (Lennon liked to poke fun at Beatles' manager Brian Epstein by singing "Baby, you're a rich fag Jew" instead of "Baby, you're a rich man too"). But damn -- their music is still some of the finest pop/rock music ever.

Getting away from pop/rock -- Richard Wagner was a virulent anti-Semite and a serial adulterer, but he wrote some of the most sublime music ever. O.J. Simpson was one of the best running backs I've ever seen. Bill Cosby was a brilliant stand-up comic. Woody Allen turned out to be a bit of a creep, but he has made a lot of great movies, and I still love those movies.

If I can only enjoy art (of any kind) made by people with no moral flaws, I'm afraid I'll be left with no art at all. I'm not going to idolize Clapton as a person (and the same goes for everyone else I've mentioned), but I'm still going to listen to his music and enjoy it. I think you have to be able to do this if you're going to enjoy any music at all. Name any artist (of any kind), and I'll bet you can find something unsavory about him or her if you dig deep enough.
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03-08-2017, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 09:33 AM by Vera.)
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(03-08-2017 09:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If I can only enjoy art (of any kind) made by people with no moral flaws

When did I ever say anything about no moral flaws? Nobody is perfect. To me, however,*personally*, there are things I cannot "get over", nor do I want to, and racism and homophobia (bigotry in general, really) are at the top of the list. Comparing the idiotic reason of "he more popular than Jesus" to "he is a vile racist little man" is dishonest and unfair to what I was trying to say and just plain ridiculous *and* has nothing to do with an artist being "flawed".

(It helps that I find Clapton nothing out of the ordinary, to say the least, Wagner unlistenable and have absolutely NO admiration whatsoever for someone just because they can run, throw a ball or hit someone real well)

Quote:Name any artist (of any kind), and I'll bet you can find something unsavory about him or her if you dig deep enough.

Again, this is a grave (I won't say dishonest, but...) distortion of what I said.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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03-08-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(01-08-2017 08:42 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I used to be a devout Christian (like I have said here before) and had some attempts at street ministries and starting my own church. I cannot explain the emotionally toxic and draining and shocking experience of posting on Christian forums and especially (drum roll please) my attempts to remain civil on PASTORS.NET. Man oh man oh man was that site a real pit of vipers. A site supposedly for pastors and almost daily but consistently weekly I would find myself deflecting snarky, underhanded, cliquish responses from "pastors" there. They were incredibly racist and sexist and joked about homosexuals dying of AIDS. When Hurricane Katrina hit the moderator joked about wanting to go to New Orleans to do some target practice (on looters) and bragged how he would kill anyone knocking on his door at that time. I got so tired of the way they triple teamed anyone not in their little circle, and the consistent and unnecessary way they posted mean spirited, insulting replies. Pastors.net is Rick Warren's site and for someone who is all about building mall like mega-churches you would have thought they would have expected more loving, supportive behavior from pastors. Nope. Atheism has already shown me a more loving, intelligent path. Christianity was and is a false light.


So, I am celebrating that I have posted 45 times on this THINKING ATHEIST FORUM and have not been in a single argument with anyone! (I guess that shows I would have made a sucky pastor after all. I just don't have it in me to be snarky and mean.) THANKS for the community here.

I do not think it is always a good thing to be polite to horrible claims, especially claims that attack the human rights of others, or even sell junk science and try to pass it off as fact.

I have always valued my fellow human's potential, POTENTIAL, to be compassionate, but we are not always compassionate. Sometimes our species can be horribly violently cruel, Hitler and Stalin come to mind.

When it comes to religious justifications for bigotry, justifications for denial of rights, and justifications for violence in the name of religion, no, I refuse to always be polite in those contexts.

Humans have rights most certainly, but ideas as claims do not deserve blind value never to be criticized or ridiculed or blasphemed. To me, civility is not about never offending or getting offended, but how one responds in the face of those situations.

It is a bit of a utopia idea to think all 7 billion humans will only say nice things about each other. If all 7 billion humans got to silence others over things that they would rather not hear, all 7 billion of us could think of things we would rather not hear.

I am a social liberal. I will always value the individual as long as they value non violence and common law. Outside that I do not owe every individual claim blind value.

I love my well intended liberal friends for their empathy, but no, I do not value the concept of "never say ever" as a blanket solution. My response to an individual depends on that individual.

Not even atheists agree on all issues all the time. There are even atheists I do not like and have been quite blunt to on their positions. My word choice to me is a case by case judgment based on the individual I am dealing with in that moment.

And as far as that website, the admins have the same right to set their own rules as the admins here. Speech at least with America, has to do with what government has to protect, not what a private website has to protect. Everyone is entitled to speak their mind as protected by the government, but nobody is entitled to an audience.

The common law is already there that protects, or should I say SHOULD protect everyone. Such as you cannot act out in violence and you cannot call for violence in your speech. But nobody is entitled to be 100% free from getting offended 100% of the time.

Speech can only be treated by government as a case by case issue. I will never be a fan of blanket solutions when it comes to speech.

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03-08-2017, 10:10 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(03-08-2017 09:27 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 09:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If I can only enjoy art (of any kind) made by people with no moral flaws

When did I ever say anything about no moral flaws? Nobody is perfect. To me, however,*personally*, there are things I cannot "get over", nor do I want to, and racism and homophobia (bigotry in general, really) are at the top of the list. Comparing the idiotic reason of "he more popular than Jesus" to "he is a vile racist little man" is dishonest and unfair to what I was trying to say and just plain ridiculous *and* has nothing to do with an artist being "flawed".

(It helps that I find Clapton nothing out of the ordinary, to say the least, Wagner unlistenable and have absolutely NO admiration whatsoever for someone just because they can run, throw a ball or hit someone real well)

Quote:Name any artist (of any kind), and I'll bet you can find something unsavory about him or her if you dig deep enough.

Again, this is a grave (I won't say dishonest, but...) distortion of what I said.

Sorry if I overgeneralized, but I would say that the things O.J. Simpson and Bill Cosby did (or were accused of doing -- I don't know whether or not there's still any doubt in either case) were worse than being racist or homophobic. I guess we all have lines that we draw, and I definitely wasn't picking on you or the lines that you personally draw. I just wanted to express a different view. No offense was intended. Maybe it has something to do with how much you like the artist's work. As you admit, you don't have much use for Clapton or Wagner anyway. I rate them much higher artistically than you do, and maybe I'm more willing to cut them some slack because of that. But I don't think that's it, really. It's just that I can admire a piece of art (and to me, what O.J. Simpson did on the football field, or Michael Jordan on a basketball court, qualifies) regardless of what kind of person the author of that art happens to be. Some people can't separate the two. I can and do. Disclaimer: I'm most definitely not claiming to be better than anyone else because of this -- maybe it even makes me worse than more discriminating people. But it's the way I am.
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03-08-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(02-08-2017 08:23 PM)Oaken Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 07:40 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  Yep. I find it entirely easy not to shop at Hobby Lobby. But Chick-Fil-A calls out to me...... "eat me....Eat Me.....EAT ME..." And I pass by it several times a week so it makes it tough.

I know! I work with developmentally disabled adults and I hate it when they say they want to go to Chick-Fil-A. I find myself offering up KFC, Ezell's Chicken and when that doesn't work I start recommending Mod Pizza. Nope. When they get their mind fixed on something it is like crazy-glue stuck. One day I was fiercely hungry and decided to have some Chick-Fil-A with my client. It was so damned good, but a part of me felt like I was a Muslim eating pork. I told my friend after I needed to beg the Flying Spaghetti Monster for forgiveness.

On top of the whole not supporting a homophobic bible-thumper, I am really bothered by the fact that at our closest Chik-Fil-A they make employees stand outside in the blazing hot southern sun (or freezing cold in winter) for hours at a time to speed up the drive-through. Inhumane.

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
"Life is not all lovely thorns and singing vultures, you know." ~ Morticia Addams
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03-08-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(03-08-2017 10:08 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 08:42 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I used to be a devout Christian (like I have said here before) and had some attempts at street ministries and starting my own church. I cannot explain the emotionally toxic and draining and shocking experience of posting on Christian forums and especially (drum roll please) my attempts to remain civil on PASTORS.NET. Man oh man oh man was that site a real pit of vipers. A site supposedly for pastors and almost daily but consistently weekly I would find myself deflecting snarky, underhanded, cliquish responses from "pastors" there. They were incredibly racist and sexist and joked about homosexuals dying of AIDS. When Hurricane Katrina hit the moderator joked about wanting to go to New Orleans to do some target practice (on looters) and bragged how he would kill anyone knocking on his door at that time. I got so tired of the way they triple teamed anyone not in their little circle, and the consistent and unnecessary way they posted mean spirited, insulting replies. Pastors.net is Rick Warren's site and for someone who is all about building mall like mega-churches you would have thought they would have expected more loving, supportive behavior from pastors. Nope. Atheism has already shown me a more loving, intelligent path. Christianity was and is a false light.


So, I am celebrating that I have posted 45 times on this THINKING ATHEIST FORUM and have not been in a single argument with anyone! (I guess that shows I would have made a sucky pastor after all. I just don't have it in me to be snarky and mean.) THANKS for the community here.

I do not think it is always a good thing to be polite to horrible claims, especially claims that attack the human rights of others, or even sell junk science and try to pass it off as fact.

I have always valued my fellow human's potential, POTENTIAL, to be compassionate, but we are not always compassionate. Sometimes our species can be horribly violently cruel, Hitler and Stalin come to mind.

When it comes to religious justifications for bigotry, justifications for denial of rights, and justifications for violence in the name of religion, no, I refuse to always be polite in those contexts.

Humans have rights most certainly, but ideas as claims do not deserve blind value never to be criticized or ridiculed or blasphemed. To me, civility is not about never offending or getting offended, but how one responds in the face of those situations.

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03-08-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(03-08-2017 10:27 AM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 08:23 PM)Oaken Wrote:  I know! I work with developmentally disabled adults and I hate it when they say they want to go to Chick-Fil-A. I find myself offering up KFC, Ezell's Chicken and when that doesn't work I start recommending Mod Pizza. Nope. When they get their mind fixed on something it is like crazy-glue stuck. One day I was fiercely hungry and decided to have some Chick-Fil-A with my client. It was so damned good, but a part of me felt like I was a Muslim eating pork. I told my friend after I needed to beg the Flying Spaghetti Monster for forgiveness.

On top of the whole not supporting a homophobic bible-thumper, I am really bothered by the fact that at our closest Chik-Fil-A they make employees stand outside in the blazing hot southern sun (or freezing cold in winter) for hours at a time to speed up the drive-through. Inhumane.

That isn't always a religious issue. I can tell you having worked at a major pizza chain, those assholes pull similar crap. If you live in a "right to work state", really what it means is "the right to fuck the employee" state.

I can tell you that drivers are pressured constantly to take risks but because of the language you sign, and that you pay for your own car insurance, that puts all the risk on you and very little to no liability on the franchise owner. It is protocol during bad weather for example, say ice and snow, for the driver to have the ability to refuse a delivery. Problem is if you do, you could walk in the next day and get fired for not wearing your name tag, or having a wrinkled shirt when you know damned well they fired you because you refused to risk your safety.

It never happened to me, but having worked at a major pizza chain I can tell you it does happen. And, just like Fart Fil Fuck, the laws favor them more than the worker.

Fart Fil Fuck simply adds the element of religious bigotry to doing what many major corporations already do. It is also why I refuse to use UBER, they undermine not only stable wages for workers, but have created loopholes around worker, consumer safety.

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03-08-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
Didn't mean that to imply that religion is their reason for treating employees like shit. Just that when I eat there I feel like I am supporting an employer who also treats their employees like shit. For the record when we get pizza I pick it up. And when I cave and eat Chik-Fil-A I always go inside to order. And whenever I witness an employee being chewed out by a higher up in a retail setting I always notify corporate about it. Small things, but it's what I can do.

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
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03-08-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: 45 posts and 0 arguments!
(03-08-2017 10:47 AM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  Didn't mean that to imply that religion is their reason for treating employees like shit. Just that when I eat there I feel like I am supporting an employer who also treats their employees like shit. For the record when we get pizza I pick it up. And when I cave and eat Chik-Fil-A I always go inside to order. And whenever I witness an employee being chewed out by a higher up in a retail setting I always notify corporate about it. Small things, but it's what I can do.

I think you missed my point. Yes making employees stand out in extreme heat or extreme cold is shitty, I was pointing out that their anti LGBT bullshit makes them extra shitty.

The Satellite TV corps are notoriously shitty to both their employees and to the customers. I had a friend who worked for one. They set you up with impossible sales goals, force overtime on you, but also force you to sell to a customer even when you know all they want is simple price info, or you get the impression they cant afford it.

Having long since quit that pizza chain, no matter if I go into a fast food place or gas station, I am painfully aware of what the corporate goons set up. You can get fired if you are talking to a customer, and a corporate shopper whom they send in, and you don't follow the script, even if you are skipping something to save time to attend to everyone in line faster.

You are living in the age of Reagan's deregulation, were the morals are made up by the rich and the workers don't matter.

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