9/11 Coincidence ?
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14-03-2011, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 14-03-2011 06:47 PM by Laxion.)
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
no Bnw, It's just that in the past, I never paid attention to news and stuff, always playing games and being immature, and now I'm being a bit mature and looking at news lately. I was probably 13-14 by the time I 1st heard about 9/11, in my social class, how the class all submit into believing terrorists doing it. Not really skeptical but rather believe in the authority's story, and seeing the planes hitting the towers.

A year later, I came onto here, and started watching about 9/11, I was convince by the evidence that 9/11 was an inside job.

you know what, just forget what I said about it. I was wrong to assume that also( was watching the video,and it showed the evidence of that happening, I just don't remember specifically, so ignore that.), I think kikko also assume about explosion coming from electrical devices exploding without evidence, but by logic.

You know what after watching the video sosa, showed my about default position really changes my mind about reality. I still think it's an inside job, I don't have any evidence, or specifications. The website does, and the videos does.

I won't say, I know anymore. It's because I really didn't read the website data much, just assume they are right. Well I did read some info, but yeah, I still think it's an inside job because of bush not admitting anything. It's my only defense, for thinking's its a inside job, and many other little evidence, that I must have forgotten. Of course it's no excuse, My only defense is that, nothing more, maybe if I feel like adding, I will read up upon on the website database.

Even if 911 wasn't an inside job, That war is pointless, Wars are nothing but suffering, I really want to end the war, and learn how to talk nicely with each other.

"don't jump to conclusions until your 99%"

"dreams are the best source of creativity" me
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14-03-2011, 09:23 PM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
Good start on this Laxion. Your opinion can be either way, but we want you to have an informed opinion. For the record though mentioning the event helps keep the war mongers going, because Americans have pretty much gotten over their extreme hate of Muslims, but those who are emotionally effected by the event can relapse due to it being brought up.

The event was used as reason to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan not to start a serious war, the laws that came from the event are the real issue with it. Saddam Hussein and Iraq are part of a known US conspiracy that lasted through many presidents. The US has often installed and helped rulers of other countries that support US goals. It is factual that the US helped give Saddam power, and that it was in order to remove someone who was saying Iraqi oil should not be sold to other countries for less than other oil. Conspiracies do happen, so it's not that they are always false, but even when they are proven it usually doesn't change much.

We will let you have whatever opinions you feel are good for yourself, but if you ask us about them we'll state ours and sometimes aggressively. Proof is a very hard thing to bring to a conversation, and in trying to prove something complex and involved you need to study up a lot. Think about the amount of time you've researched a topic and decide if it really is important to you. If something really matters for you then you can invest the time to have hard evidence, though I'm not really suggesting you do that with these things.

Talk with Galgamesh a while about the time he spent on these things by wanting to prove them, and you'll see what you gain from it. Even when a conspiracy is proven the only reward given is that it's proven, generally no one even knows who proved it. Most often by the time proof is available it's too late for there to be any real action taken towards the culprits. For instance, Bush is no longer president so it's not like we can Impeach him. These are just things to think about before allotting the time to studying these things.

Remember to spend time having fun, and just learning the basics of being a logical intellectual will be a huge help for you. Intellectuals can fall for illogical reasons as easily as non-intellectuals. I say have fun because as most of us have learned the hard way, it's not that common you get to be happy in your life just simply happy, so make sure to have as much of that feeling as you can. Being happy is something worth striving for.

If you take this time to learn the basics, then when you decide to really study and attempt something you will be better prepared. Knowledge is something humans seek, and there's plenty trivial knowledge. Sometimes that's what you're looking for and sometimes you don't realize it's trivial. But it's never fun to spend a huge amount of time dealing with a problem only to find out that someone else solved it already. You don't have to prove anything right now, just learn and grow towards the person you want to be.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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15-03-2011, 09:01 AM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
Quote:I think kikko also assume about explosion coming from electrical devices exploding without evidence, but by logic.
I don't assume that the sounds were from electronic devices, I just assume that electronics make explosions in fire (we burned a computer screen, keyboards and such in a barrel in intense fire.). I also told the miller example (told by my teacher), in which metal (the blade) and metal (the table) hit each other and make an explosive sound.

I got the electric explosion idea from this quote from a firefighter, taken out of context by conspiracy theorists:
''Q. Do you recall at any time, particularly when you were on West Street, any companies whose vehicles may have been parked near where you were?

A. No. I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did yc.u see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. i never met the man before in my lite. He knew who was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me Captain DAmato even in my section. I didn't know what happened to him. When it started to come down, I ran south and he ran sort of west into a building and that was the last we saw of each other.''

K, here's how I see 911: A bunch of terrorist lusty for virgins take part in Osama's war against the US, which he declared years before the attacks, weeks before he organized suicide bombings to US embassies. They successfully fly commercial aeroplanes into buildings, which starts a fire. The intense heat deteriorates the structures so much, that the floors below the hitting point couldn't take the weigh of the upper floors anymore. Then, according to the theory of gravity, gravitation finished the buildings. Actually this quote explains better:
Quote:The kinetic energy of the top part of the tower impacting the
floor below was found to be about 8.4 larger than the plastic
energy absorption capability of the underlying story, and considerably
higher than that if fracturing were taken into account
(Bažant and Zhou 2002a). This fact, along with the fact that
during the progressive collapse of underlying stories (Figs. 1d)
and 2 the loss of gravitational potential per story is much greater
than the energy dissipated per story, was sufficient for Bažant and
Zhou 2002a to conclude, purely on energy grounds, that the
tower was doomed once the top part of the tower dropped through
the height of one story (or even 0.5 m).
It was also observed that
this conclusion made any calculations of the dynamics of progressive
collapse after the first single-story drop of upper part superfluous.
The relative smallness of energy absorption capability compared to the kinetic energy also sufficed to explain, without any further calculations, why the collapse duration could not have
been much longer (say, twice as long or more) than the duration
of a free fall from the tower top.
(Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions) http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people...rs/466.pdf

What's is are the flaws with this view?

How stupid were these conspirators? I would understand if Bush alone would have planned it all, but nobody can organize it alone. Nobody stood up to Bush and said ''Ummm... How about we don't put a little bit of explosives into the buildings and how about we if we don't use our miracle machine which leaves a clean cut as it cuts steel pillars with thermite sideways and vertically. We don't need them, so why increase the risk of getting caught by using them? And how about we don't shoot a missile to pentagon, aren't the twin towers enough of an excuse to go to war?''

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15-03-2011, 06:48 PM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
You know what you guys, I don't know if I should say if I believe in those conspiracy anymore...I just realized 9/11 and Illuminati were strongly correlated to each other. I am really just paranoid now, and unsure of it. I really don't know if it is true or not. I'm a little more to thinking its true, than not to think it's true. Because of Michael Jackson's last music video.

Those Illuminati movie seeing the 9/11 symbols in it, Maybe it was Photoshop. Just unsure until I see that particular movie scene myself on a different source.

I just don't seem to understand why are there 1000 professional architectural/structural engineers doubting it. I mean I do agree that there is random cruel things that happen. I do appreciate them for finding answers. It's seem really odd that they all think or know it's an inside job. I find it hard to doubt them, because they are expert's in their field. I'm used to learning from experts in fields, when I watch science channel, and see biologists talking about evolution, I just don't question experts enough maybe.

KikkoYou seem to be right about that actually.

Well, my stand on this 9/11 event is just un sure about it really. I just do know, it's wasn't a justifiable thing to do to war Iraq for a few individuals who did it. Or if it was a inside job, War isn't necessarily.

I just hope that people can learn how to talk nicely, and not have wars, or kill anyone. Sigh, maybe in the future, Science will hopefully make sophisticated technology to protect everyone, from attacks from others. Also make have more security in everything as well, improved safety standards of every day things like cars.

There are cars that can drive themselves, and stop on collision course. It will be able to prevent 99.99% of traffic accidents and save lives. But instead of implementing the technology on every car, it costs money, And they just make it a law, still having re occurring problems.

I don't know if I even agree with zeitgeists, I guess I would agree with them mostly everything, except for the conspiracy just unsure except for the part that it was used to war Iraq. I obviously agree with a science based systems to govern society. The R.B.E. I guess for everyone to hate zeitgeists, just go with venus project, and z-day(zeitgeist) seems to be spreading the word everywhere which I really apprieciated it's member to do. Smile

So I am un-sure about it, until it becomes extremely obvious with mind blowing evidence. That everyone here will agree on.

"don't jump to conclusions until your 99%"

"dreams are the best source of creativity" me
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15-03-2011, 11:11 PM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
And that's your main problem. Believing everything someone says just because they're an "expert". Just because someone is an "expert" does not mean everything they say is true. There are many creationist scientists who are also "experts". Someones title doesn't do anything to establish the reliability of a proposition or claim. You have to look at both sides and judge for yourself, not just one side and believe claims based on some peoples credentials. I hope that you will one day see that this is a very dangerous way of going through life. I can't fully fault you though. I was 15 once and I was also into conspiracy theories and listened to Alex Jones as if he was the next best thing since sliced bread. Im older now and know better. You will change, we all do, we never remain the same person. And maybe you'll look back at your past beliefs and see how silly they were

"Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." Mikhail Bakunin
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16-03-2011, 03:01 AM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
Quote:Talk with Galgamesh a while about the time he spent on these things by wanting to prove them, and you'll see what you gain from it.

Usually little is gained trying to prove a conspiracy true or untrue. Mostly the recent ones are based on unfalsifiable hypothesis so there is no way to disprove them.
Corruption and unfairness is abundant on our planet and in almost all aspects of society , but if you can't change it or do something about it there's no point in "eating your nerves"(Romanian expression) over it.
Yes there have been conspiracies in the past , and almost alway they have been exposed.

And as Sosa said , there are many "experts" and "journals" out there that have no reputation or expertise whatsoever.There are many fundamentalist christians calling themselves professor or doctor without having a degree or usually getting a degree from Bible Universities.
There are reputable experts that can just be wrong on a certain topic even if they're right about everything else.There are doctors who to this day postulate that aids isn't caused by HIV and that the cure to aids is drinking fruit juice.
The world sucks and there are no absolutes , and there is no individual or group who is completely unbiased or capable of being 100% correct. That's why there's a peer-review process in science. My advice : understand the scientific method and always draw your conclusion based on abundant evidence.

And as far as the world goes , thousands of people die daily because they don't have clean drinking water - most of these are children. It would take a few large donations to charities to provide these people with what they need. Still , it doesn't happen. As cruel as this might sound - if you cry for every human being in pain , you will cry forever. Do what you can to help by donating to charities , volunteering at soup kitchens , vote politicians that run a platform of improving people's lives , protest unfair behavior openly (and non-violently) , but beyond that there is little to nothing you can do - people will suffer and die needlessly - it's been with us since homo sapiens began and it will be with us until the end.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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16-03-2011, 06:48 AM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
Quote:Well, my stand on this 9/11 event is just un sure about it really. I just do know, it's wasn't a justifiable thing to do to war Iraq for a few individuals who did it. Or if it was a inside job, War isn't necessarily.

Once again: the US did not go to war in Iraq over 9/11. We found an entirely different, and completely fabricated, reason to go to war in Iraq. The only thing 9/11 really did was lesson the Congressional opposition to the war, so I suppose in that sense 9/11 lead to the Iraq war but it was not a direct response. There is a lot of evidence that Bush wanted to attack Iraq prior to 9/11.

Anyway, by coincidence, Matt Tiabbi of Rolling Stone did a bit on the truthers in his blog yesterday. Well worth reading: Truthers Fight Back!

I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine.
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16-03-2011, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2011 07:27 PM by Laxion.)
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
Eh.... those weren't religious experts, they were the public university people. ( which is most likely atheists)

I'm just neutral toward these conspiracies really. Oh well, the thing I'd like to change is the R.B.E. I feel like changing zeitgeist, and not hand out those DVDs except Movie #3 Zeitgeist Moving Forward which has no conspiracy in it.

Lot's of evidence to attack IRAQ, Attack them for what purpose ? Now I wonder if 9/11 was set up to attack them if they couldn't. If they could have but 9/11 just happened or didn't happened.

That link written by 1 guy, I don't know If I should trust it, 1400 engineers seems to support the control demolition thing.

Also there was this news show showing that the plane crash, and people that heard explosive inside the building, it said that the FBI think there is a truck in the building full with explosives with the planes crashes all together. Which really kinda doesn't make sense with what kikko just said about it.

I guess I happen to be more in favor with the (non-religious) experts.

don't trust the media, don't trust the government, but rather trusts the people which is you guys, professionals, skeptics,and experts. Well I just don't trust the higher ups that runs society. Everyone in government would love to maintain their power, I remember my social teacher show us that a organization owns almost all of the news letters company. Basically there are up's and down's in media and government. And that government can suppress media if they want to. Well pretty sure they can't with the Constitution. But the usa's government seem to suppress it about Obama's public appearances. ( actually I have no idea why I wrote this when I do trust them, oh yeah don't trust people with position of power sometimes)

Well I really trust the scientific method to find answer obviously. Still really neutral about it. I don't intend to find out the answer to this because it was a long time ago, and don't wanna waste hours looking at both side validating it, verifying it. checking it. Takes too much time to know the actual answer to a very controversial issue.

Neutral for the win, looking at the big picture of everything, looking at both side because if the left side of the equation of does not equal to the right side, there is obviously a mistake somewhere :)

actually bnw I think I agree with you, I just found it hard to completely deny the 9/11 conspiracy because of the experts doubting it. How building 7 fell without being hit by a plane, but It's probably because they wanted to demolish it in the first place. I don't know, makes it a bit suspicious though. The guy who owns those buildings recently got the holder of it like 3 weeks ago admit that they demolish building 7. he also made 6 billion $ off it with his 17 million investment to obtain the world trade center property. He didn't admit to the other 2 world trade center though or said anything about it. eh... just neutral about it. I don't feel like doing research about it, so I have nothing to say about 911 really. Just looking at other people's researched to save time. well I just feel like dropping it, going back to playing games on the internet...

sosa thanks :D

gaglamesh731 The scientific method isn't perfect, but a lot better I'd say :)

"don't jump to conclusions until your 99%"

"dreams are the best source of creativity" me
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17-03-2011, 09:08 AM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
The real tragedy of this "truther" movement is that it provides enough noise to completely obscure some potential real issues. The probability that the American people have been given a total and complete honest assessment of what actually happened that day is really, really low. I have no evidence of that and there is nothing specific that I think is being withheld, but given how secretive the US government tends to be, and the Bush administration specifically, I find it tough to believe that we've been told the whole unvarnished truth.

That is not meant to mean I think there was a conspiracy to commit mass murder as a subterfuge for war. It may be as simple as covering up the amount of incompetence in reacting that day, and questions about things like the health risk exposure have never been fully addressed. And, when we have a bunch of nimrods running around claiming that Dick Cheney lined the building explosives so he can justify the aware of military contracts for Haliburton, you've pretty much guaranteed there will be no serious push for any kind of meaningful follow up because no one wants to be associated with these loons.

I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine.
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17-03-2011, 09:29 PM
RE: 9/11 Coincidence ?
Well, I'm neutral towards all conspiracy, just favoring certain reasons, and ideas that make sense. Not really into them anymore...

I agree with the venus project Tongue, I never know bringing up zeitgeist/Venus project would lead me into those 9/11 conspiracy, and the Illuminati conspiracy. Well anyways, I kinda discard all the conspiracy, I understand our past mistakes, but What I'm really concern is about our future, and how we can prevent tragedy. Basically I'm not looking for answers to the past, but rather looking for solutions of the future.

Thanks everyone, without your help, I think I might of just went for believe the thousands experts, and the research they provided. I'm going for Scientific peer review Journals now, that's what I'm going to believe that is true. I think I'd learn a lesson or 2 about being skeptical, logical, rational Big Grin

Now let's spread the awesome system? and zeitgeist 3 movie Moving Forward(contains no conspiracy, forgot about movie 2, but I think 1, and 2 did.) Big Grin

Hey that's a good quote of myself Big Grin "Not looking for the answers to the past, but rather the solutions for the future"

Well, I think I might get ratings up now, if I were not to do such a childish act once again. I wonder if you guys hate me, it feels like almost everyone hates me, except maybe Master Lilth, and Master Stark.

"don't jump to conclusions until your 99%"

"dreams are the best source of creativity" me
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