9/11 truthers "are crazy"
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01-09-2011, 03:30 PM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
This just keeps getting funnier ... and stupider.

So, help me out here. On the phone call thing: Ted Olsen was, at the time, the Solicitor General of the US and a member of the Bush administration. So, how did that work? Did the discussion go like this?

Ted: You wanted to see me, Mr. President?
Bush: Ted, come on in. Look, I've got a favor to ask. See we're going to blow up some buildings in New York so we can go to war in Iraq for a different reason a year later.
Ted: Ok, sounds reasonable but what do you need from me?
Bush: Well, you see, we're going to make it look like some planes hit the building. I understand your wife is flying tomorrow, right? Well, we are going to pretend to hijack her plane.
Ted: I guess I'm ok with that, but what happens to my wife and the other passengers?
Bush: well, Ted, we're going to have to kill them all. And, we're going to need you to later claim she called you from the plane to give validity to this whole story.
Ted: Well, I'll certainly miss her but ,,, hey, country first!

Is that about how you think it went? And how about all the other people that claimed to receive these phone calls from their loved ones? Are they all in on this too?

Seriously, you have to be an idiot to believe this conspiracy theory. A complete and total idiot.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-09-2011, 06:11 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2011 07:01 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
I'll deal with the ones that I know a little about.

Fires:
Structural Columns, are very bad at supporting horizontal loads, which is why they aren't used to support them. If you want something to collapse you destroy the columns, or hit them from the side.

You don't have to melt something for it to become weak, just heating something will cause the support to lose some strength. Here's actually a snippet from the Thomas Jefferson National Lab that talks about this very issue in relation to WTC models:

Melting point of steel

Explosions:
Eye witness testimony may be one of the strongest forms in courts, but it's the weakest in terms of science. That's because of the argument from ignorance. Here is a video where Neil deGrasse Tyson explains the "argument from ignorance" in terms of UFO's, but the same idea is valid across all sorts of topics. AoI is the idea that our brains are very bad at figuring things out, especially regarding things we don't know. Without evidence, I would guess that a lot of those claims are from the AoI. I would recommend watching the entire video, especially because Neil deGrasse Tyson is an extraordinary speaker.

Argument from Ignorance

Molten Metal:
Oxygen is a very small gas, meaning that it's quite good at filling up a space, especially an unorganized space. Collapsing metal is not notoriously good at creating sealed environments, it can seal it enough that life may not be able to survive, but I would doubt that it sealed enough to make finding molten metal an impossibility.

WTC 7:
Wasn't the building on fire for a few hours that day? What evidence do you have for the idea that one column failed? I would guess multiple failed because the building was on fire for a few hours.

No, I don't take the 9/11 commission as 100% scientific, but I take it as the product of people who aren't fully educated in engineering or science.


If I may ask, because it's an important question to ask yourself when in a debate, what would it take for you to believe that you are wrong? For me, you'd have to prove some sort of connection between the Taliban and our government (we did just violate international sovereignty in order to kill the guy who said he did it, who had also been in hiding from our military who was out for blood) and you'd have to prove that demolitions were set (not through eye witness testimony, but through hard science).

Now, I have no explanation for the nano-thermite, but you'll have to prove that they came from government agencies. I don't know what offices where in the WTC, there could have been chemicals in one of them, the thermite could've come from the terrorists, I'm not even sure how they found traces of thermite in all that rubble. But you need to prove the source of the thermite was the government before you can make accusations. That was the second time that the WTC had been attacked by extremists (I think it was Al-Qaeda as well). The last time they set explosives off in the parking garage under the building, perhaps there was a similar "back-up plan". Thermite is surprisingly easy to get.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

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02-09-2011, 06:50 AM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
(01-09-2011 06:11 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  Explosions:
Eye witness testimony may be one of the strongest forms in courts, but it's the weakest in terms of science.

Actually, eye witnesses testimony is considered to be one of the worst types of evidence because eye witnesses are incredibly unreliable. People forget, they think they see things they did not see, etc. A good lawyer can pick apart an eye witness account pretty easily. That's generally why the other side wants to have corroborating evidence before they put a witness on the stand to give eye witness testimony. Just look at the DSK case in New York. It fell apart not because there was not evidence that there was non-consensual sex but because the victim could not keep her own story straight as to what happened.

On the phone calls - first, the claim that there were no air phones is wrong. And, if it is is true then the operators who took those calls and spoke to the people on those planes are all lying, thus adding to the list of ever growing people involved in this mammoth conspiracy. The number has to be in the millions now. Second, the planes were not flying at 40,000 feet. The hijackers were flying lower when those calls were made. There is no reason cell phone calls could not be completed on those planes. You'd probably have more than a few of the calls dropped, but there are a lot of family members who claim to have talked to their family members before the end or received messages from them. Wait, I forgot: they are in on the conspiracy too.

And speaking of large numbers of people keeping a secret, someone mentioned the Manhattan Project a few posts back. Not relevant. First, the Manhattan Project was not a plot to murder millions of innocent people, it was a plan to win a war. Second, while there were thousands of people who worked on it, there were on more than a handful of people who actually knew what they were working. I don't know that exact number but it was pretty small. And, the scientists were all sequestered. The only real risk of someone talking came from the top military brass. Even the pilots who flew the Enola Gay to drop the first bomb did not know what they were doing until a few days before the mission. They trained for it but were only told it was a standard bomb with some extra bang, or something like that.

Finally, the amount of wrong information and outright lies this entire "theory" is based on should really be sufficient to cast more than reasonable doubt in any thinking person's mind.

- the insurance was not "updated" before the attack
- no one was arrested on the GW Bridge with a truck full of explosives
- people did receive phone calls and messages
- millions of people watched the 2nd plane fly into the building. I don't mean on TV, I mean with their own eyes watched it happen. Eye witness testimony may not be great but you can certainly rely when a few million people all claim to have seen the exact same thing.

And, of course there is zero evidence that this was anything but what it purports to be. No one has ever come forward to say they were involved with the planting of explosives, that they lied about taking a phone call, that they help kill the passengers, etc. The entire basis for this "theory" is people want to believe it poke holes at the actual story - and that certainly has some holes in it - without offering any proof at all that it's not what happened.

People believe this conspiracy because they want to believe it, not because there is any evidence to support it. They want to believe the Bush administration was capable of this, that governments are all powerful and can coerce millions of people to go along with something like this and NEVER say anything, and therefore that must be the truth. Which brings me back to the idiocy of the whole thing.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
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02-09-2011, 10:34 PM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"




Part 1 of a 5 part "debate" between the Loose Change guys and guys from Popular Mechanics. If you'll notice, as with every debate, you can tell right away who the logical side is. The guys from PM are calmly presenting explanations while the Loose Change guys are annoying, disrespectful cunts who are dressed like they're still in high school... while calling everyone around them liars.

Side note: apparently the LC guys think 64 people rode in on a cruise missile, with a black box strapped to their chests... or after the missile struck, somebody went outside and sprinkled the bodies of every passenger of flight 77 on the ground, along with airplane debris. Who cares if the hole in the Pentagon looks smaller than what Joe Citizen thinks it should be (because everyone with an opinion is also highly trained in blast dynamics and airplane crashes). The dead bodies of everyone on that flight were recovered in the smoking wreckage at the site. The end.

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04-09-2011, 03:16 PM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
Something else on the cell phone "controversy" that never seems to get brought up: the original regulations against using cell phones on airplanes were not from the FAA or NTSB but from the FCC. For those of you not familiar with these government organizations, the FAA is the Federal Aviation Administration and the NTSB is the National Transportation Safety Board. These are the two organizations that would be involved in airline safety regulations. The FCC is the Federal Communications Commission. The reason for the regulation was that their was concern that planes flying overhead with active cell phones would clog up the networks below as they grabbed signals from all the towers. We now know that would probably not happen but the service at 30,000 ft is fairly sporadic and inconsistent. It's not, however, non-existent. As for the reason why an airline would add antennas to their planes, I can't believe that is even a question. It's because if you're offering a service you offer one that works, not one that will drop calls.

Like I said before - all these conspiracy theories on this are just idiotic. Even if the government were inclined to do something like this, for it to work just about everyone in the country except the people who think it's a conspiracy would have to be in on the conspiracy. It's complete nonsense.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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10-09-2011, 03:51 AM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
Crazy? mostly no, But some will certainly be so.
Poorly informed? Every single one absolutely are.
Lets face large numbers of the human population still believe in invisible sky fairies and having close personal relationships with invisible friends. In many countries trash talking these invisible friends can have serious consequences. The real question is why would anybody not think the nuts running the asylum.

Even if they were right, it is irrelevant. There are more important concerns. Here are a few.

The population/energy crisis is so scary some people will think anything to avoid having to deal with it. America could use corn derived ethanol to replace imports if you don't increased food prices and replacing all US based food crop production.

Horn of Africa regularly gets drought which might be inevitable but famine isn't. Yet every time there is a big drought there, there is famine. Because the international agencies could not organize a piss-up in a brewery and even if they could they need the cooperation of local warlords.

Middle East ... it just never stops.

North Korea - belligerent leadership on the brink of disaster.

Inadequate of funding in many areas of scientific research that relate to human concerns.
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10-09-2011, 03:55 AM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
(31-08-2011 03:23 PM)bemore Wrote:  Jet fuel doesnt burn hot enough to melt a steel structure that was built to withstand more than one plane hitting it.

Doesn't need to. The video shows that at much lower temperatures steel softens and can fail.
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10-09-2011, 12:24 PM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
(02-09-2011 06:50 AM)BnW Wrote:  People believe this conspiracy because they want to believe it, not because there is any evidence to support it.

You can exclude me from that statement my friend.......Im still very open minded and im guessing that of all the people on here I have probably done the most open minded research on it.

There are too many inconsistencys........WAY to many.

Like Bush saying in a speech that he watched the first plane hit on a television in a corridor at the school he was giving a talk to........ha ha ha ha big fail because NOBODY saw it on television actually happen......because there was no live crews filming it at the time. Millions of people saw the second plane hit on telly though, but nobody saw the first plane hit.

I could go on and on and on with inconsistencys but obviously people have allready made there minds up so it would seem.........which I find unusual when allready people on here have had there beliefs changed once (religious to atheist).....there is a big lesson to learn from that........in time I think people will......I say that with respect.

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

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10-09-2011, 06:26 PM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
Please find a link where Bush said that. Let me know when you find it.

Finally .. and for the upteenth time .. there is a difference between believing in the possibility that the US government has covered up its various inadequacies and mistakes that day and in the months leading up to the attack and believing that the US government was responsible for the attacks and it was an "inside job" or whatever other nonsense theory is out there.

The former - the idea that the American people have never been given an honest and accurate accounting of what happened that day and what failures allowed it to happen - is extremely plausible. I'd be not at all surprised if there are things we have never been told. The latter - where the US government murdered thousands of innocent people in a massive conspiracy theory that no one has ever produced any evidence or witnesses to - is just impossible.

And therein lies the rub of all this. As long as leaders can lump everyone asking questions in with the batshit crazy crowd, no real answers will ever be given. It may not even matter anymore, though. 10 years has gone and the world has changed so much that what did or did not happen that day may not even be relevant at this point.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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10-09-2011, 10:11 PM
RE: 9/11 truthers "are crazy"
BnW, I don't think it would be that black and white. Although I personally don't support the theory, I find that their is viable evidence to support the claim of a conspiracy being covered up. Be it four amateur pilots managed to break through "the strongest nation's" no-fly zone when that exact scenario had been practiced by the military before or the infamous building 7 'collapsing' without significant damage, apparently from damaged sustained by fire, which would make it the only steel building to have ever collapsed because of damage by fire. Mind you that the leaser of the WTC had taken out an insurance policy for a terrorist attack on the building only a year before the actual attack.

I find that the conspiracy theorist have a good mindset which is apparent in the atheist community, that is - question everything. What would be crazy is eating up everything your government tells you.
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