9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
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31-12-2012, 02:36 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
(31-12-2012 02:29 PM)Diablo Wrote:  They are politicians, they are rich. The vast majority likely know absolutely nothing about guns. You can't seriously expect them to know everything regarding such a vast market.

Yes, sometimes they make stupid comments, but does that mean they don't understand the general situation? No. Some one has told them that xyz is too dangerous for whatever reason. When they are asked about that reason, they don't know, and comments like the ones you proposed are made.


Do we need to understand terminology regarding a Bazooka to understand they are too dangerous to be floating around the public?
No, of course not.

You aren't providing any arguments, because there are none. You are merely dismissing others arguments, because it conflicts with your own and you feel they don't have enough hands on knowledge. Neither of which are good reasons to dismiss an argument.

If your opinion of who is suitable to handle gun legislation was enacted, then the only body capable of handling it would be the NRA.


The fact of the matter is that are three legitimate uses for guns.
#1 Self Defense
#2 Fun
#3 Hunting

All three of these can be accomplished with basic shotguns, rifles, and handguns.
Everything else is unnecessary, and too dangerous to be in open circulation.

The fact that it is unnecessary and dangerous is more than enough merit in itself to ban it.


But that really is the point: please define "basic shotguns, rifles, and handguns". Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-01-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
Exactly.

Having practical knowledge of things like firearms manipulation, terminal ballistics and body alarm responses, as well as knowing rough statistics on the exact parameters of how people actually die in shootings is pretty fucking important when you think about the average citizen and what they should WANT in a defensive firearm. How can anyone tell the shop owner in a LA riot/Katrina situation that they DONT "need" a firearm with a magazine capacity of 10-30 rounds? I can reload a pistol from slide lock at a average of 1.20-1.70s and a AR style rifle around 2.9-3.5s(thank you shot timer Cool ). I however, have been shooting since I was 5, shot smallbore in high school, was a marksmanship instructor in the Marines, shot USPSA casually for the last 2 and seriously for since June, and will prob be a instructor for which ever department Im at when I get out of training. I dryfire practice 5x a week now for 30-60mins a day bc I'm trying to be competitive on a regional/nation level. The average person dosent do this, and a reload is literally a handfull that takes a lot more time to do, and thats not even adding stress in.

Why is a collapsable stock soo evil? We are all different sizes,a telescoping stock makes sense.

What about flash hiders on AR's? Ever fired a short barreled pistol at night??? The muzzle flash will FUCK your natural night vision, not what you want at 3am with someone inside your house.


So where are the gun grabber's firearms experts? I've never heard of one. Like a fucking unicorn. Where's their veteran snipers and trainers from LEOs and the Military who think guns should be banned? I've never met one. You'll get plenty of gun grabbers from big city police chiefs who dont know shit about guns bc they've been riding a desk their whole career and are really just politicians in a Class A uniform. They know better then to cross the mayor anyway.
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01-01-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.


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02-01-2013, 01:08 AM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
It's the manufacturers fault, they need to put breathalysers in every car.

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02-01-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
BlackKnight sent me that video in a pm, so I'll just post the basics of my reply to him.

First off, he starts off with points I can agree with. That there are other factors that must be considered, but a lot of what he says after that has some flaws that should be addressed.


Comparing 2 years, rather than trends. He compares 1992 and present. Only comparing 2 years worth of data is misleading because crime rates can spike and drop on a year to year basis. What matters is the overall trend over the course of several years. There is a reason no one just looks at 2 years worth of data when making comparisons between other countries and between states.

Metropolitan areas are high concentration areas of people where crime rates should be expected to be higher.
This is for 2 reasons
-Increased frequency of people means more opportunity. There are more people alive today with Parkinson's than in 1900 because there are more people alive. Basically what I am saying is that when there is more opportunity, there are more occurences of some rare thing. If you only go out into the forest for an hour looking for a rare species, you may never see it. But if you set up a camera and leave it out for a year, your chances increase exponentially.
-Poverty level. Low-income areas are also larger in Metropolitan areas.
-Disparity between incomes. In rural areas, there are fewer high-income families and fewer low-income families. It is more of a middleground and is also connected to
-Overall wealth of the area and price of basic commodities. Basically, your money goes farther in rural areas than in metropolitan areas. $20,000 in New York City is really low income and not feasible to live off of because of the price of commodities like gas, milk, bread, transportation, etc. But in rural areas (like where I grew up in TN), the price of these commodities is lower. Getting a cheap car is pretty easy. Wal-Marts are frequent. And living off of $20,000 is much more reasonable (rent is ridiculously low in areas like that whereas you may not be able to find an apartment in New York for $20,000 a year)

The "true trouble spots" when looking at a neighborhood by neighborhood basis is also not surprising. Bet it is highest in low income areas. And there are more of those in metropolitan areas. These are ignored by everyone because there is no quick fix for them. It can only come from improvement of those areas from within. Basically what I am saying is they need better access to better education.

"Who is working on improving that." That is why people want universal healthcare. Reducing the cost of basic commodities is highly valuable to these communities and improving the quality of the education can have a big impact too.

How do you improve the lives of the lowest income portion of the population? Man that's a tough question. I have already said education twice, but what else could you do? I don't know the answer to that.

Can you even do it in the short-term? Quick-fixes rarely work for any extended period of time, and we need long-term fixes.

Education is key. Improve education overall and you improve the ability for these people to get jobs that are not blue-collar. The white-collar jobs are more stable, pay better, and have better benefits.

I don't know of anyone that has said the US has a lower crime rate than England. He is cherry-picking what he is saying here and building a bit of a straw-man.

The murder rate is still lower in the UK. He seems to want to dismiss this. Isn't that what he is criticizing everyone else of? He is not giving a suggestion as to why their murder rate is lower, but I have a guess I will get to in a second.

Gun crime is lower. I think this is what most people are saying instead of just crime overall.

Yes, the UK has more violent crime, but that may be due to something I have already mentioned, and that is:
The UK has fewer metropolitan areas, but it also has a lower population and...

Percent of Americans living in Urban and suburban areas = 82%

Percent of UK residents living in urban and suburban areas = 90%
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/...ing-cities


Crime occurs in metropolitan areas at a higher perceived rate than rural areas (something he said too) and more UK citizens live in metropolitan areas, so it would be expected for crime rates to be higher, irregardless of gun laws. But murder rate is lower even though that too should be higher in metropolitan areas. So, the UK seems to have that figured out. Basically, less access to instruments of death means lower murder rates. So the total number of metropolitan areas is not what is important, he is cherry picking again.

Crime rates in European nations have dropped too over a similar time frame. That means that the global economy is likely a major contributor, so nothing happening in the US is unique as far as dropping crime rates.

Another part of the puzzle that needs to be addressed is the frequency of mass shootings. The US is a statistical anomaly there too with a rate higher than other European nations.

Yes, the politicians have an agenda. So do the politicians on the pro-gun side. The point is that it is important to look through that agenda. I don't have cable. I don't watch the pundits. I would have been right there on your side pretty much right up to the Newtown incident. Having a kid and being an hour away from something like that will fuck you up man.

When has the media been honest about anything anyways? They over simplify on pretty much every issue because the people watching are not smart enough to understand all of the metrics.

He cherry picks data at the very end of his own video, committing something he is accusing everyone else of. He uses 2011 only, not the 2000's or some longer period of time. Using one years worth of data is misleading. He also only uses rifles in homicides. The point is not just that rifles are a problem.

Solving violent crime? Who is under the delusion that they can solve violent crime? Better education can help, but it won't eliminate it.

I don't know of anyone who is saying that better gun laws will cause violent crime rates to drop, but if murder rates drop and mass shootings drop, that will be a huge step forward.


Basically, he makes all the same mistakes he is accusing everyone else of. None of his arguments actually support less or no gun restriction. The US does not have a crime rate or murder rate that implies more guns equals less crime. So, what exactly is he trying to say? It can't hurt to have this many guns and this few laws? The mass shooting statistics and murder rate say otherwise.

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02-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Re: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
I posted this last night before I pmed you. Its why I dont trust anyone on any side when they try to spout statistics.
   
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02-01-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
(02-01-2013 02:25 PM)TheBlackKnight Wrote:  I posted this last night before I pmed you. Its why I dont trust anyone on any side when they try to spout statistics.

Its not a matter of distrusting someone just because they use statistics but checking what they are saying. He says metropolitan areas are an issue and lists the total number between the UK and the US. Logic would dictate that the US is larger and more spread out, so it would not be total number but percent living in them that would be interesting. That's the reason I gave the info along with my objections to his misinformation. You are generalizing that anyone using statistics is trying to mislead you. The reality is that you gave to know enough to know what to look for. That only comes from practice by doing.

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02-01-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
And close to a 100,000 die annually as a direct result of 'medical mistakes'. Mistakes by 'doctors'.
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02-01-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
(02-01-2013 02:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-01-2013 02:25 PM)TheBlackKnight Wrote:  I posted this last night before I pmed you. Its why I dont trust anyone on any side when they try to spout statistics.

Its not a matter of distrusting someone just because they use statistics but checking what they are saying. He says metropolitan areas are an issue and lists the total number between the UK and the US. Logic would dictate that the US is larger and more spread out, so it would not be total number but percent living in them that would be interesting. That's the reason I gave the info along with my objections to his misinformation. You are generalizing that anyone using statistics is trying to mislead you. The reality is that you gave to know enough to know what to look for. That only comes from practice by doing.
I've never found anyone who has done a objective, complete study on firearms.
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02-01-2013, 05:50 PM
RE: 9,146 gun homicides in US. 16,885 killed by drunk drivers.
(02-01-2013 04:12 PM)Janus Wrote:  And close to a 100,000 die annually as a direct result of 'medical mistakes'. Mistakes by 'doctors'.

Glad we make them get insurance in order to practice medicine. Also glad that while these mistake happen, doctors can be shown to have a direct benefit on the good health of people.

As for not having seen a complete objective study on firearms. The statistics show the trends. What information about firearms do you want?

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