9 Dead in SC church shooting
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21-06-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 03:03 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 01:59 PM)LostLegend Wrote:  I'm against gun ownership, but at a push I can understand someone wanting one for sport/hunting and maybe owning a handgun in case of home invasion. What I don't understand is the need for your average joe to own an AR15 with a 100 round mag and a laser scope. Just who do you think is going to invade your home? "Ze Germans"?

The holographic weapons sight makes the shots fired more accurate.

No, it doesn't. Aiming and trigger control make shots more accurate. The shots are not being guided.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-06-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 03:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 02:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  This is what the DC snipers used: Holographic weapon sight.

OK, if that what was meant. Those are not particularly better than iron sights except in low-light.

For an expert like John Allen Muhammed maybe. But what about for a novice kid like Lee Boyd Malvo making head shots from hundreds of yards away?

(21-06-2015 03:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 03:03 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  The holographic weapons sight makes the shots fired more accurate.

No, it doesn't. Aiming and trigger control make shots more accurate. The shots are not being guided.

I think he was being sarcastic.

#sigh
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21-06-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 03:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 03:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  OK, if that what was meant. Those are not particularly better than iron sights except in low-light.

For an expert like John Allen Muhammed maybe. But what about for a novice kid like Lee Boyd Malvo making head shots from hundreds of yards away?

Wikipedia Wrote:While in the Tacoma, Washington area, according to his statements to investigators, Malvo shoplifted the Bushmaster XM-15 from Bull's Eye Shooter Supply, and practiced his marksmanship on the Bull's Eye firing range adjacent to the gun shop.

And hundreds of yards away? Consider

Quote:The victims were all completely random and of different ages and sexes and were killed with single shots from a distance of 50-100 yards,

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-06-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 02:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I keep hearing a theme, here an on Facebook...if the guy who did this had used a weapon other than a gun - which made multiple murders easier - that's the issue - it's the gun. The gun made it possible for many to be killed.

WTAF - if he killed one person, in some other way then the discussion would be about the racist aspect of this story. And probably a mental health aspect to this story.

What's the number? How many murdered in a black church turns the focus from the method to the reason?

That's a damn good question. Only explanation that comes to mind is that the introspection required to answer that reveals shit far more frightening than any weapon could ever be. Same reason mental health issues scare the shit outta us. There but for the grace of God go I.

#sigh
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21-06-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 02:04 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^ The counter argument is clear though - sure, allowing *those* people easy access to guns is bad news, but if I encounter one of those people I want to have a gun myself.
The assumptions made are thus:
1. The "bad" guys are going to have guns anyway, so the law just takes guns away from the "good" guys.
2. Without guns the "bad" guys are going to do the killing anyway, but with other weapons such as box cutters...
3. I'm good with a gun, if I have a gun I have a high chance of protecting myself.
4. A gun allows an otherwise weak victim to protect themselves.

The counters
1. If guns (especially handguns) are rare in society then even the "bad" guys struggle to get them. Especially the jealous, angry boyfriend/husband.
2. box cutters aren't as effective as guns, they don't make the attacker as brave, they require close proximity. For those that disagree, reason why your army is equipped with guns rather than box cutters.
3. The "bad" guy has the drop on you, they know that an attack is about to happen, you don't. It won't be a fair fight, and there is no reason to believe that you are better with a gun than them. Guns escalate conflict to lethal territory. Your chances of survival in a gun fight are poor.
4. a gun allows an otherwise weak attacker to be brave and to attack much bigger victims.

(21-06-2015 02:04 PM)morondog Wrote:  Being *not* in control means I am at the mercy of whatever lunatic is driving, I don't even have the *option* to swing the wheel.
Yeah, I agree, there is a desire for control and possibly a fear of being helpless. "Rather have a shooting chance that none at all" type of thing going on.

With this it doesn't matter that it makes the average household more dangerous or that gun crimes go up, or that wives and girlfriends get killed by angry partners.

This person may reason that they are safe with a gun, they won't have accidents, they won't use it on their own partner so they aren't willing to give up their "right" to protect themselves so they my think it is the "angry" or "unintelligent" or "lazy" or "pick the wrong partners" people's fault that they are gun victims.
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21-06-2015, 03:26 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 10:49 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  They are military styled firearms.

This rifle:

[Image: 5816.jpg]

and this rifle:

[Image: 5846.jpg]

... are essentially the same weapon. What the hell does "military style" have to do with anything other than political theater where the actors want to look like they're doing something?

George Lucas clearly knew something long before most folks did -- black plastic is scary:

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21-06-2015, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2015 03:29 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 03:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 03:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  For an expert like John Allen Muhammed maybe. But what about for a novice kid like Lee Boyd Malvo making head shots from hundreds of yards away?

Wikipedia Wrote:While in the Tacoma, Washington area, according to his statements to investigators, Malvo shoplifted the Bushmaster XM-15 from Bull's Eye Shooter Supply, and practiced his marksmanship on the Bull's Eye firing range adjacent to the gun shop.

And hundreds of yards away? Consider

Quote:The victims were all completely random and of different ages and sexes and were killed with single shots from a distance of 50-100 yards,

Oh for fuck's sake old man. Way to miss the fucking point. The attacks were carried out with a purchased Bushmaster XM-15 (AR-15 style) semiautomatic .223 caliber rifle equipped with an EOTech holographic weapon sight which is effective at ranges of between 50 and 550 yards (46 and 503 m) found in the vehicle.

#sigh
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21-06-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
I have asked twice now - going for one more try.

Those of you who are rabidly anti-gun but are also gamers - how many of you play first person shooter games?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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21-06-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 03:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 02:57 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I keep hearing a theme, here an on Facebook...if the guy who did this had used a weapon other than a gun - which made multiple murders easier - that's the issue - it's the gun. The gun made it possible for many to be killed.

WTAF - if he killed one person, in some other way then the discussion would be about the racist aspect of this story. And probably a mental health aspect to this story.

What's the number? How many murdered in a black church turns the focus from the method to the reason?

That's a damn good question. Only explanation that comes to mind is that the introspection required to answer that reveals shit far more frightening than any weapon could ever be. Same reason mental health issues scare the shit outta us. There but for the grace of God go I.

I am going to post something I put on facebook.

"His motivation was racism and bigotry his method was easily accessible firearms to look at half the problem is pointless. Both need to be changed if we as a people are ever going to move forward. Luckily Racism is on the decline, the moderate position is now not pro-racism this was not really the case even as little as 30 years ago. What remains, in most places anyway there are outliers which SC is definitely part of, is the extremists. Those will probably never really go away. What we can do however is limit their potential to inflict violence on the rest of us. So that brings in the discussion of the second half of this tragedy the Method he used. The easiest method for such an attack in the US is to go buy a big fuck off gun with a lot of bullets. It is very effective as we have seen over and over and over again. Maybe just maybe had this racist piece of human trash not had an easily available easy to operate weapon of mass death this would not have happened."

Sometimes in the treatment of a deep seated disease you must first treat the symptoms so you can prevent them from killing the host, before you can treat the root problem. I could lay out a plan to fix America's mental health system (which the killer in this case is not part of, he was a racist piece of shit but he was sane) but at best that would be a 20 year + plan and in all reality would be 50 years or more before all the fruits of it were reaped. In that time can we as a people afford to have monthly or more mass shootings? We have tried doing nothing and it has failed.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-06-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(21-06-2015 02:04 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^ The counter argument is clear though - sure, allowing *those* people easy access to guns is bad news, but if I encounter one of those people I want to have a gun myself.

I think... to me that indicates a lack of trust in government systems to catch criminals, possibly well justified.


I don't trust the government to be where I need them when I need them. They don't have a good track record in that regard. And even if the police are on the scene at the time of the issue, they aren't obligated to protect you, by Supreme Court ruling.

Or, if like me you live 24 miles from the nearest sheriff's substation, you may not have the time to await the cavalry. Granted that out in the country I don't have to deal with crime, I do have to deal with wild animals, and that's why I'll be buying a gun.

(21-06-2015 02:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 01:59 PM)LostLegend Wrote:  I'm against gun ownership, but at a push I can understand someone wanting one for sport/hunting and maybe owning a handgun in case of home invasion. What I don't understand is the need for your average joe to own an AR15 with a 100 round mag and a laser scope. Just who do you think is going to invade your home? "Ze Germans"?

100 round mag? laser scope?

What are those?

Plot devices.
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