9 Dead in SC church shooting
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23-06-2015, 04:36 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 03:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Studies show that between half a million and two and a half million crimes are prevented by armed civilians annually. The actual numbers depend on sampling methods.

Tough Targets

Indeed. Assuming that those figures are remotely reliable - given the track record of the Cato "Climate Change is Government Lies" Institute, I'd doubt it; since when do you take testimony from ideology first, facts second if ever libertarian types? - then that's a factor to enter into the analysis of costs and benefits.

If the issue weren't so dementedly politicised, there'd be robust analyses of where the various regulatory factors' inflection points are.

I don't trust CATO's numbers either but even the low estimates by Hemenway of 55,000-80,000 per annum are larger than I had thought. But yeah, Chas should've posted the Wikipedia link instead of CATO-sponsored report.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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23-06-2015, 04:49 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2015 07:50 PM by Anjele.)
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 12:36 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(23-06-2015 09:10 AM)kim Wrote:  So, now it's a flag debate. I guess that's how this one will winde down.

Because once we take down these racist flags, we won't have any more racism, riiiiiiiiight?


Dodgy

Taking down that flag was literally the absolute least they could do and still claim to have done something.

So, it's the least they can do. I say that's is something and it's a positive thing. As long the Confederate flag/Rebel Flag/Stars and Bars (that's a whole other debate) are on the statehouse grounds it is implied acceptance of everything it has come to stand for. This should have happened a long, long time ago - not the shooting but the serious discussion of removing the flag.

Ride around rural SC, and that's most of the state, you will find the flag on everything from rundown trailers to homes belonging to upstanding members of the state. And it's everywhere else too. Mudflaps and trucker hats, T-shirts and tattoos, Zippo lighters and BIC lighters. Head to the beach and get your flag boogie board, board shorts, or beach towel. Stickers on vehicles that have nothing to do with southern heritage and everything to do with racism. Purses and diaper bags...try it, ride a few miles and I guarantee you will see the flag. It's everywhere.

People who harbor the hatred of blacks and the belief that they are lesser look around and see a symbol that says to them that they have comrades...they aren't alone in their racism...and they are right.

Since it's not a gun ban in the state of SC it's being looked down on as an empty gesture. I assure you that it's not an empty gesture there. It's the best thing that could happen to get things rolling beyond the 1800s is to get that damn flag off of everything, starting with the capital lawn.

I hate as much as anyone that people died at the hands of a racist asshole who had a plan and a weapon.

I will be waiting and watching and hoping that the SC government does what it should have done a long damn time ago. I have lived there and witnessed the hatred and division among the people. I have been on the receiving end of threats, as have my kids, because we aren't racist. My grandkids live there...I want their world to be more accepting of everyone.

For those who don't think it's good enough I can only say you only know what you hear and read, you haven't lived it.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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23-06-2015, 05:01 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2015 05:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 04:49 PM)Anjele Wrote:  So, it's the least they can do. I say that's is something and it's a positive thing. As long the Confederate flag/Rebel Flag/Stars and Bars (that a whole other debate) are on the statehouse grounds it is implied acceptance of everything it has come to stand for. This should have happened a long, long time ago - not the shooting but the serious discussion of removing the flag.

Ride around rural SC, and that's most of the state, you will find the flag on everything from rundown trailers to homes belonging to upstanding members of the state. And it's everywhere else too. Mudflaps and trucker hats, T-shirts and tattoos, Zippo lighters and BIC lighters. Head to the beach and get your flag boogie board, board shorts, or beach towel. Stickers on vehicles that have nothing to do with southern heritage and everything to do with racism. Purses and diaper bags...try it, ride a few miles and I guarantee you will see the flag. It's everywhere.

People who harbor the hatred of blacks and the belief that they are lesser look around and see a symbol that says to them that they have comrades...they aren't alone in their racism...and they are right.

Since it's not a gun ban in the state of SC it's being looked down on as an empty gesture. I assure you that it's not an empty gesture there. It's the best thing that could happen to get things rolling beyond the 1800s is to get that damn flag off of everything, starting with the capital lawn.

I hate as much as anyone that people died at the hands of a racist asshole who had a plan and a weapon.

I will be waiting and watching and hoping that the SC government does what it should have done a long damn time ago. I have lived there and witnessed the hatred and division among the people. I have been on the receiving end of threats, as have my kids, because we aren't racist. My grandkids live there...I want their world to be more accepting of everyone.

For those who don't think it's good enough I can only say you only know what you hear and read, you haven't lived it.

Like you, I think that action may turn out to be more effective than any gun control measure could ever be. That kid could have legally obtained that ordinary pistol, ammo and magazines in The Peoples Republic of Maryland and even our strict gun control laws would not have prevented a similar massacre.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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23-06-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 05:04 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(23-06-2015 12:37 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The odd thing is that even with training, cops aren't very good shooters, mostly.

I've met several of the deputies in our county over the years - through the concealed carry course that one of the deputies taught at my house - using my garage as a classroom and my pistol range for the shooting portion.

Just for fun, we shot for scores. NRA Bullseye scoring (50 foot, using 22 pistols) --- They did OK. I did better.. I had a better teacher and lots more practice.

I can believe that. Patrolman First Class Michael Slager shot at Walter Scott 8 times from a distance of 5-15 yards while he was fleeing at the gait of a geezer and hit him 5 times. Not particularly impressive for someone who should know how to shoot.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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23-06-2015, 06:22 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(22-06-2015 12:37 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 05:36 PM)joben1 Wrote:  Yo know it's strange the cultural differences. Here in large parts (if not all) of the UK, if someone mentioned that they owned a handgun, they would be considered odd and someone not to be trusted. They would certainly be given a wide berth. Rational or not, it's true. We think owning a handgun is something only criminals do, and even that seems to be rare. Don't know why it's so different over in the US.

Because we're citizens -

And you're subjects.


It's really that simple.

I rather think that most people here would punch you in the mouth if you called them subjects. You are a bit behind the times.

Wide of the Mark agrees that animals change over time but thinks evolution is false. Facepalm
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23-06-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(22-06-2015 04:21 AM)Gatheist Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 05:36 PM)joben1 Wrote:  Yo know it's strange the cultural differences. Here in large parts (if not all) of the UK, if someone mentioned that they owned a handgun, they would be considered odd and someone not to be trusted. They would certainly be given a wide berth. Rational or not, it's true. We think owning a handgun is something only criminals do, and even that seems to be rare. Don't know why it's so different over in the US.

Yeah... about that. I know that pepper spray is considered a serious weapon there as well as a TASER. Furthermore, some sentiments on even legalizing pepper spray is met with resistance. Additionally, I believe carrying objects that have a defensive purpose and if used as such will get the overbearing eye of the CPS (if you are not arrested, first).

Sounds like a victim mentality. No thanks. You guys can be fairly defenseless and submit to an aggressors will.

Jesus, paranoia running rampant? Maybe paranoia is necessary over where you are, but over here I have never met anyone who felt the need to arm themselves for defensive purposes. If you think that us Brits have a victim mentality, god help you if you ever come over here. Don't you know our history?

Wide of the Mark agrees that animals change over time but thinks evolution is false. Facepalm
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23-06-2015, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2015 06:54 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 03:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed. Assuming that those figures are remotely reliable - given the track record of the Cato "Climate Change is Government Lies" Institute, I'd doubt it;

The irony is that that linked article says nothing of the sort; it says that scientists should be willing to admit that the forecast rises didn't occur, and that the models were wrong. Nowhere in that article are the errors ascribed to government lies -- you spun that lie out of whole cloth.

What does it say about you that, in your ad homeneim attack, you must also misrepresent the basis for your ad hom?

Please note two things: I'm not arguing that the institute's numbers on gun defense are correct; nor am I arguing that global warming is not occurring. I am arguing that your ad hom doesn't even have the saving grace of truth to it.

Do you have any evidence that the Cato Institute's numbers are wrong, or is this dishonest attack your only riposte?
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23-06-2015, 07:29 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 06:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Do you have any evidence that the Cato Institute's numbers are wrong, or is this dishonest attack your only riposte?

They are disputable. Any statistic legitimately disputable should not be taken as fact.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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23-06-2015, 07:45 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 07:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-06-2015 06:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Do you have any evidence that the Cato Institute's numbers are wrong, or is this dishonest attack your only riposte?

They are disputable. Any statistic legitimately disputable should not be taken as fact.

And I didn't present them as fact - I did point out that the estimates vary widely.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-06-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: 9 Dead in SC church shooting
(23-06-2015 07:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-06-2015 07:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  They are disputable. Any statistic legitimately disputable should not be taken as fact.

And I didn't present them as fact - I did point out that the estimates vary widely.

You did. You just understated the lower estimate. No big deal. The lowest estimates still made your point.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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