9 arguments against the empty tomb
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07-10-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 12:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 11:48 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  Thank you for the typo correction.

Ok but what about the arguments? You do realize that these are arguments against the empty tomb and thus against the claims against Christianity? If you're going to debate someone on this topic it doesn't really do much good to just say "Richard Carrier says it's all fiction". The 9 arguments actually show why the empty tomb is most likely fiction.

Probably the best defense I've ever read for the historicity of an actual human Jesus is by the atheist Tim O'Neill: http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html

Carrier has many REASONS and arguments. I use some of those. The literary mythical format of the gospels is one. I don't waste my time debating loonatics. Life is too short. True believers do not believe because of reason. Faith is a "gift of God". It's the abandonment of reason. There is really no way to "argue" someone into abandoning their faith. Deconversion is a complex process with many supports that need to rot slowly away.

But knock yourself out, if that's what you're into. I guess if you buy that there was a Jesus and a tomb, they might fly. I don't accept any of it.
http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html is a pile of dung, for many reasons. If that's the best, I feel sorry for you.

I tried your link and got the "page does not exist", but seems to be a part of a blogger's page. Guessing that "got issues" didn't see the argument so gave you a sarcastic response.
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07-10-2015, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2015 03:24 PM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 12:15 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 12:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I believe he is a professor at Columbia, (or was). He's better educated than you. He's not a fringe anything. And you did not address even ONE of his arguments.

Actually, Jesus mythicism is considered a fringe view in modern scholarship. How many mythicist professors teach at accredited universities? 3 or 4 maybe?

The mythicist view is fringe / minority mainly because of the history of how the debate has taken place. Over the past century or so there have been arguments against Jesus' existence but they have been set up terribly, or fallacious in logic along with fact claims that weren't corroborated. Mainstream scholarship has dismissed this as the general "been there done that" debunking effort. But within the past 8-10 years there have been several arguments developed that have made the case look much stronger. Unfortunately mainstream scholarship won't buy into this because they are looking at the old style arguments without having reviewed the new by people such as Carrier, Robert Price, Earl Doherty etc. Carrier's book essentially made it past peer review and met the typical scholarship standard that is set by mainstream field. I am no authority but I have read multiple authors on both side of the stream and I think the mythicists definitely deserve a seat at the table of discussion.

As more people review all the information more are defecting...especially PhD scholars within the field of study. Of course there is push back from the mainstream because christian scholars aren't going to admit that there's even one iota of a possibility that Jesus didn't exist. That would completely disintegrate their entire worldview. AND mainstream scholars such as Bart Ehrman that aren't believers but still hold prestigious positions have blatantly implied that, and I paraphrase,: -- any scholar that accepts the mythicist theory commits academic and social suicide-- So no, of course people aren't going to give the argument a fair shake if their livelihood depends on it. There is a lot of push back by mainstream scholars because they are "integrated into the Jesus studies academic network and even if they are at secular schools their professions, monies, grants and donors are heavily controlled by christian donors which can be ripped away quite easily." (Carraier, Richard - Interview with TTA Seth Andrews, 10/6/15).

As I always say, I lean toward the direction that makes the most given all information available. The mythicist theory that Price, Carrier, Doherty and the likes propose leave more questions answered than unanswered.

I've posted this before but I shall post it again:




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07-10-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 02:47 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 12:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Carrier has many REASONS and arguments. I use some of those. The literary mythical format of the gospels is one. I don't waste my time debating loonatics. Life is too short. True believers do not believe because of reason. Faith is a "gift of God". It's the abandonment of reason. There is really no way to "argue" someone into abandoning their faith. Deconversion is a complex process with many supports that need to rot slowly away.

But knock yourself out, if that's what you're into. I guess if you buy that there was a Jesus and a tomb, they might fly. I don't accept any of it.
http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html is a pile of dung, for many reasons. If that's the best, I feel sorry for you.

I tried your link and got the "page does not exist", but seems to be a part of a blogger's page. Guessing that "got issues" didn't see the argument so gave you a sarcastic response.

Not mine. It's his. Worked for me.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-10-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
I'll leave the links again but can you guys start your own thread about Jesus mythicism? This thread is for arguments debunking the empty tomb. Thanks

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-e...ers/863434
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07-10-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:23 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  I'll leave the links again but can you guys start your own thread about Jesus mythicism? This thread is for arguments debunking the empty tomb. Thanks

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-e...ers/863434

If you have no Jesus, you have no tomb. Thumbsup Tongue

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07-10-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:25 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:23 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  I'll leave the links again but can you guys start your own thread about Jesus mythicism? This thread is for arguments debunking the empty tomb. Thanks

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-e...ers/863434

If you have no Jesus, you have no tomb. Thumbsup Tongue

But the theory that there was no Jesus is far from proven. I can accept that a historical Jewish preacher Jesus existed, he was influential and gained a following, then his followers started a religion after his death. This doesn't require anything supernatural and I can still remain an intellectually fulfilled atheist. The links I provided above challenge the mythicist position directly and Tim will respond to questions if you ask him on Quora.
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07-10-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
Seems like I remember one of the TTA podcasts where Carrier came on to discuss his book. I can't find a transcript and I am not about to go listen through it again just for this but... I remember him emphasizing not so much that Jesus was a myth, but that he didn't think there had been enough discussion on and examination of the evidence of the historicity of Jesus. His stated purpose of writing the book was not a declaration of his own personal stance but rather an examination of the state of the various arguments (both for and against the historical existence of Jesus) to date. I wouldn't consider him as on the fringe at all.

I thought the OP was about the legitimacy, or lack thereof rather, of the myth of the resurrection. The arguments should be taken on their own merit. I would think that a debate of the existence of the man himself would be a separate discussion. Further, the purpose of the OP was clearly stated as being for counter-apologist and debate purposes. From a counter-apologist standpoint, debating the existence of a man named Jesus is much more difficult than to work from the assumption that even if the man ever existed, he was not resurrected and therefore not a risen savior.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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07-10-2015, 03:31 PM
9 arguments against the empty tomb
I'm just giving you a hard time. I completely understand not wanting to derail the thread and I respect those wishes.

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07-10-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:25 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:23 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  I'll leave the links again but can you guys start your own thread about Jesus mythicism? This thread is for arguments debunking the empty tomb. Thanks

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2014/...again.html

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-e...ers/863434

If you have no Jesus, you have no tomb. Thumbsup Tongue

Technically, you could still have a tomb... and an empty one at that. You would just need to provide some other story for us to want to pay admission to see it.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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07-10-2015, 03:36 PM
9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:31 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Seems like I remember one of the TTA podcasts where Carrier came on to discuss his book. I can't find a transcript and I am not about to go listen through it again just for this but... I remember him emphasizing not so much that Jesus was a myth, but that he didn't think there had been enough discussion on and examination of the evidence of the historicity of Jesus. His stated purpose of writing the book was not a declaration of his own personal stance but rather an examination of the state of the various arguments (both for and against the historical existence of Jesus) to date. I wouldn't consider him as on the fringe at all.

I thought the OP was about the legitimacy, or lack thereof rather, of the myth of the resurrection. The arguments should be taken on their own merit. I would think that a debate of the existence of the man himself would be a separate discussion. Further, the purpose of the OP was clearly stated as being for counter-apologist and debate purposes. From a counter-apologist standpoint, debating the existence of a man named Jesus is much more difficult than to work from the assumption that even if the man ever existed, he was not resurrected and therefore not a risen savior.

Take a look at yesterday's TTA podcast. Carrier was just on...

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