9 arguments against the empty tomb
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07-10-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:36 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:31 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Seems like I remember one of the TTA podcasts where Carrier came on to discuss his book. I can't find a transcript and I am not about to go listen through it again just for this but... I remember him emphasizing not so much that Jesus was a myth, but that he didn't think there had been enough discussion on and examination of the evidence of the historicity of Jesus. His stated purpose of writing the book was not a declaration of his own personal stance but rather an examination of the state of the various arguments (both for and against the historical existence of Jesus) to date. I wouldn't consider him as on the fringe at all.

I thought the OP was about the legitimacy, or lack thereof rather, of the myth of the resurrection. The arguments should be taken on their own merit. I would think that a debate of the existence of the man himself would be a separate discussion. Further, the purpose of the OP was clearly stated as being for counter-apologist and debate purposes. From a counter-apologist standpoint, debating the existence of a man named Jesus is much more difficult than to work from the assumption that even if the man ever existed, he was not resurrected and therefore not a risen savior.

Take a look at yesterday's TTA podcast. Carrier was just on...

Gah! No spoilers! I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet.

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07-10-2015, 03:42 PM
9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:38 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:36 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Take a look at yesterday's TTA podcast. Carrier was just on...

Gah! No spoilers! I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet.

None from me....I'm listening right now.

**Crickets** -- God
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07-10-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:30 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:25 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If you have no Jesus, you have no tomb. Thumbsup Tongue

But the theory that there was no Jesus is far from proven. I can accept that a historical Jewish preacher Jesus existed, he was influential and gained a following, then his followers started a religion after his death. This doesn't require anything supernatural and I can still remain an intellectually fulfilled atheist. The links I provided above challenge the mythicist position directly and Tim will respond to questions if you ask him on Quora.

What exactly are his qualifications to discuss the subject ?

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07-10-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
For those of you that are interested, I responded to 8 apologetic arguments for the empty tomb by a poster over on Reasonable Faith. The arguments are quite common in the apologetic circle but can be dismantled quite easily once someone has a grasp on the material.

1. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/ch...1275426392

2. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/ch...1275426393
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07-10-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
A quick google search turned up that he has a "Master of Arts in Medieval Literature from the University of Tasmania". On first glance, I didn't see any peer reviewed publications.

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07-10-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 11:24 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  A special grave was not necessary for crucified people, since crucifixion was not an official Jewish penalty. Josephus comments on the end of a biblical thief, ‘And after being immediately put to death, he was given at night the dishonorable burial proper to the condemned’ (Jos. Ant. V, 44). Somewhat similarly, he says of anyone who has been stoned to death for blaspheming God, ‘let him be hung during the day, and let him be buried dis- honorably and secretly’ (Jos. Ant. IV, 202). - Maurice Casey
https://books.google.com/books?id=nOiRBQ...&q&f=false

You can't possibly be serious, posting this garbage by Casey, as somehow representing facts. He simply recounts the gospels stories *as if* they held any truth at all. They don't. They are made up myth.
LOL. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...spels.html

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07-10-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 03:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 03:30 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  But the theory that there was no Jesus is far from proven. I can accept that a historical Jewish preacher Jesus existed, he was influential and gained a following, then his followers started a religion after his death. This doesn't require anything supernatural and I can still remain an intellectually fulfilled atheist. The links I provided above challenge the mythicist position directly and Tim will respond to questions if you ask him on Quora.

What exactly are his qualifications to discuss the subject ?

Let's just say they're better than yours.
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07-10-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 04:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 11:24 AM)GotIssues Wrote:  A special grave was not necessary for crucified people, since crucifixion was not an official Jewish penalty. Josephus comments on the end of a biblical thief, ‘And after being immediately put to death, he was given at night the dishonorable burial proper to the condemned’ (Jos. Ant. V, 44). Somewhat similarly, he says of anyone who has been stoned to death for blaspheming God, ‘let him be hung during the day, and let him be buried dis- honorably and secretly’ (Jos. Ant. IV, 202). - Maurice Casey
https://books.google.com/books?id=nOiRBQ...&q&f=false

You can't possibly be serious, posting this garbage by Casey, as somehow representing facts. He simply recounts the gospels stories *as if* they held any truth at all. They don't. They are made up myth.
LOL. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...spels.html

How does the part you quoted indicate that Casey is recounting the Gospel stories? He's just quoting Josephus passages...

You aren't very bright are you?
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07-10-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 04:10 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 04:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You can't possibly be serious, posting this garbage by Casey, as somehow representing facts. He simply recounts the gospels stories *as if* they held any truth at all. They don't. They are made up myth.
LOL. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...spels.html

How does the part you quoted indicate that Casey is recounting the Gospel stories? He's just quoting Josephus passages...

You aren't very bright are you?

You obviously have not read your sources. OMG. He's recounting what happened during the "passion and death", and talking as though what was written i8n the gospels is the truth.

Your Tim buddy has no relevant qualifications. IF you can dismiss Carrier with a PhD IN a relevant field, as "fringe" in the field of History, then someone with no degree AT ALL in the field can be even more easily dismissed.

Quote:You aren't very bright are you?

Right. You didn't get into Harvard at 16. Fool.
You are dismissed.
You go jerk off over at Reasonable Faith with your garbage.

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07-10-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: 9 arguments against the empty tomb
(07-10-2015 04:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2015 04:10 PM)GotIssues Wrote:  How does the part you quoted indicate that Casey is recounting the Gospel stories? He's just quoting Josephus passages...

You aren't very bright are you?

You obviously have not read your sources. OMG. He's recounting what happened during the "passion and death", and talking as though what was written i8n the gospels is the truth.

Your Tim buddy has no relevant qualifications. IF you can dismiss Carrier with a PhD IN a relevant field, as "fringe" in the field of History, then someone with no degree AT ALL in the field can be even more easily dismissed.

Quote:You aren't very bright are you?

Right. You didn't get into Harvard at 16. Fool.
You are dismissed.
You go jerk off over at Reasonable Faith with your garbage.

Casey is arguing AGAINST the empty tomb. That's NOT agreeing with what the Gospels say at all.

You must have been accepted into Harvard's special-ed program. Am I right?

Start another thread and give me Carrier's best argument for mythicism. I would really like to see it and have a chance to respond.
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