9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
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28-08-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 01:47 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I did mention in my reply to you that people with disabilities I can understand. Being short is no excuse, hell in capoeira being short can be a plus. Old, well I have seen old people kick ass, but I guess I can add this one. Handicapped I can understand.

Also a gun does not guarantee safety. Hell even if only one has a gun the other charging at you will be faster. Plus the gun can jam. If you are going to bring a gun, bring a shotgun.

Nothing guarantees safety.

I don't think you understand the concept of 'concealed carry' and you underestimate the stopping power of modern hollow point ammunition.




First before I go on, not once did I say guns don't work, but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier. There will be situations where your gun won't work with you and you will need something else. I am not saying guns are useless, but I am saying knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier. Plus here in NJ hollow point bullets are illegal, so if you were to one day need to travel through new jersey and some one attacks another, ones hollow point bullets might land one in jail, where the gun won't be their to protect them. The goal is also to not kill, but to stop the attacker.

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28-08-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 02:06 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nothing guarantees safety.

I don't think you understand the concept of 'concealed carry' and you underestimate the stopping power of modern hollow point ammunition.




First before I go on, not once did I say guns don't work, but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier.

In what way? You have not demonstrated that.

Quote:There will be situations where your gun won't work with you and you will need something else.

Modern firearms are incredibly reliable.

Quote:I am not saying guns are useless, but I am saying knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier.

In what way? You have not demonstrated that.

Quote:Plus here in NJ hollow point bullets are illegal,

No, they are not. There is no restriction on the purchase and they may be used on your own property or at the range.

Quote:so if you were to one day need to travel through new jersey and some one attacks another, ones hollow point bullets might land one in jail, where the gun won't be their to protect them. The goal is also to not kill, but to stop the attacker.

Hollow point ammunition is more effectively at stopping the assailant - it ise not necessarily more lethal. Did you watch the video? Consider

Also, there is soft point ammunition. Its effectiveness is between jacketed and hollow point.

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28-08-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(27-08-2014 06:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Holy fuck, how come something like "must be 5 ft tall or 12 years old" wasn't already a policy? Who thought that putting it on FULLY-AUTOMATIC, then hovering above the 9 year old novice shooter, was a good idea!?
---

Ah yes... the sign at the entrance to the Tilt-A-Whirrl... I remember it well. Luckily, I shot up well over 5 ft by the time I was 9 and was able to join in the fun with "the big kids". Shy

Perhaps the instructor wasn't aware of the difference between entertainment and dangerous weaponry. His bungled instruction may prove to be a successful teaching tool.

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28-08-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  In what way? You have not demonstrated that.

When your gun jams, when some one is to close to you, when you are attacked from behind, when you can't draw your gun fast enough nor are you faster then the person, when you are in a country where guns are not illegal, when you are being attacked no where near your gun. What the hell are you going to do then? You either use martial art skills or dead.


(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Modern firearms are incredibly reliable.

Until you run out of ammo, or your gun decides to jam. They have gotten better of the years yes, but they are not one hundred percent. Plus there is a chance of missing the important shot and done. You see martial arts can help for the just encase part.

(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  In what way? You have not demonstrated that.
http://www.usacarry.com/gun-owners-study-martial-arts/

"When bad things happen you want to have as many options as you can to protect yourself. So even though I’ve got my gun on me anytime I legally can, I still want to know as many methods as possible to protect myself and my family."

This sums up why martial art is good to know as a gun owner.
[quote]

(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, they are not. There is no restriction on the purchase and they may be used on your own property or at the range.

Great next time I have to walk in camden at night when visiting to pick up something and I need to defend my self I can bring my hollow point, OH no wait I am not on my property or at a range and all I have to defend my self is a hollow point gun. A man with a knife attacks me and I can't do anything because I depend on a gun. Seems as if I knew martial arts I would still be alive and have my money.

Then there is this situation:

I am being attacked so I use my hollow point gun at the store I was attacked at to defend my self. But I used it in a illegal spot, now I have to waste time in jail. He only had a knife, if I knew martial arts then I could have knocked him out and not be here.

(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Hollow point ammunition is more effectively at stopping the assailant - it ise not necessarily more lethal. Did you watch the video? Consider

Watched it before I commented, shit destroyed a gallon of water and blew it to pieces with one bullet. I am not saying it is inefficient, I am saying that shit would destroy insides so badly I would be surprised if you lived.

(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Also, there is soft point ammunition. Its effectiveness is between jacketed and hollow point.

This seems much better.

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28-08-2014, 06:33 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2014 06:37 PM by Chas.)
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 02:54 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  In what way? You have not demonstrated that.

When your gun jams, when some one is to close to you, when you are attacked from behind, when you can't draw your gun fast enough nor are you faster then the person, when you are in a country where guns are not illegal, when you are being attacked no where near your gun. What the hell are you going to do then? You either use martial art skills or dead.

What you stated was "...but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier."
What does that mean?

Quote:
(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Modern firearms are incredibly reliable.

Until you run out of ammo, or your gun decides to jam. They have gotten better of the years yes, but they are not one hundred percent. Plus there is a chance of missing the important shot and done. You see martial arts can help for the just encase part.

I have between 6 and 10 rounds in the gun. If I run out of ammo, I deserve to die. Drinking Beverage

With practice, clearing a jam on a pistol takes about a second.
And revolvers don't jam.

Quote:
(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  In what way? You have not demonstrated that.
http://www.usacarry.com/gun-owners-study-martial-arts/

"When bad things happen you want to have as many options as you can to protect yourself. So even though I’ve got my gun on me anytime I legally can, I still want to know as many methods as possible to protect myself and my family."

This sums up why martial art is good to know as a gun owner.

I have not disagreed with that. But what you said was "...but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier." Huh

Quote:[quote]

(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, they are not. There is no restriction on the purchase and they may be used on your own property or at the range.

Great next time I have to walk in camden at night when visiting to pick up something and I need to defend my self I can bring my hollow point, OH no wait I am not on my property or at a range and all I have to defend my self is a hollow point gun. A man with a knife attacks me and I can't do anything because I depend on a gun. Seems as if I knew martial arts I would still be alive and have my money.

Don't be silly. You carry a gun loaded with full-metal jacket (FMJ) or jacketed soft point (JSP) or lead rounds.

Quote:Then there is this situation:

I am being attacked so I use my hollow point gun at the store I was attacked at to defend my self. But I used it in a illegal spot, now I have to waste time in jail. He only had a knife, if I knew martial arts then I could have knocked him out and not be here.

Again, you are being silly. In NJ it is illegal to carry a firearm loaded with hollow point ammunition. So you don't load your firearm with hollow points. Facepalm

Quote:
(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Hollow point ammunition is more effectively at stopping the assailant - it is not necessarily more lethal. Did you watch the video? Consider

Watched it before I commented, shit destroyed a gallon of water and blew it to pieces with one bullet. I am not saying it is inefficient, I am saying that shit would destroy insides so badly I would be surprised if you lived.

It's about 'terminal ballistics', that is how much energy is transferred to the target.
FMJ rounds tend to go through and retain a lot of their kinetic energy. However, they make a very long wound with two holes to bleed from.
A hollow point round expands to two or three times its diameter and typically does not exit the body, thereby transferring its load of kinetic energy into deforming the bullet and to knocking down the target. There is only one hole to bleed from.
And because the bullet doesn't usually go through, it is safer to use. Except, of course, for the bad guy.

Quote:
(28-08-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Also, there is soft point ammunition. Its effectiveness is between jacketed and hollow point.

This seems much better.

Not really. But it is legal in NJ. Yes

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28-08-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 06:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have not disagreed with that. But what you said was "...but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier." Huh

If anything I should only really go to why know martial arts makes owning a gun easier. You see a gun is a good weapon but it is not the best you are. There is a reason it comes as a last resort. When your gun does not work but you have a chance to defend your self you know martial arts. Let me put it like this in two situations.

Non-martial arts gun owner: This man is able to own a concealed weapon and he is walking to his car, then some one attacks him from behind. This man tries to reach for the gun but he can't because the attacker won't let him. The attacker eventually pins him down and beats the crap out of him or worst killing him

A martial arts gun owner: This woman is able to own a concealed weapon and she is walking to her car, then some one attacks her from behind. She is a fast capoeira practitioner and has learned how to attack some one while some one is striking her from behind. She is able to knock the guy down and get away as fast as she can and pull out the gun she has, thus ultimately able to teach the attacker not to fuck with her whether it be close range or far range, from front or behind.

As you can see even if you depend mostly on the gun, knowing close range martial arts combat can help making the gun easier to use whether it be getting away from the attacker to get time to pull it out, making sure even if the gun fails and there is not enough time to attack, or to stop the opponent completely and saving ammo for another day.

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28-08-2014, 09:01 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
I can't say I've ever been mugged at gun point (or mugged in general for that matter), but I imagine that if I was to mug someone I wouldn't immediately hold the gun to their head, I would approach them likely with the gun concealed in my jacket pocket and stand about talking distance apart from them.
You can have a black belt in ass whooping but if a guy is standing at talking distance away with the gun in his pocket pointed at you you're not gonna go go all Jackie Chan on his ass and somehow get that gun and put him in some sort of feeble position hold, you're gonna get shot...

This idea that you could rely on martial arts (not to mention that it takes years of practice and training to get good where as a 9 year old girl could kill a dude with a gun (too soon?)) for self defense is stupid and unrealistic.

It's all about risk and preventing trouble. Raising your palms and leg off the ground is extremely unlikely to prevent a mugging. Lifting your jacket up to show your gun however... or picking your teeth with a switchblade... These things prevent danger.
Not to mention, people that are black belt in ass whooping don't get mugged because they look like professional kick boxers and nobody wants to fuck with that. The people that get mugged are people like the elderly, women, young people. People who wont benefit from knowing marital arts. Oh and before you say that martial arts prevents muggings because those that know it don't get mugged, the fact that they know it is irrelevant all that is relevant is that you look intimidating and you don't need to know any martial arts to look intimidating.

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28-08-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 09:01 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I can't say I've ever been mugged at gun point (or mugged in general for that matter), but I imagine that if I was to mug someone I wouldn't immediately hold the gun to their head, I would approach them likely with the gun concealed in my jacket pocket and stand about talking distance apart from them.
You can have a black belt in ass whooping but if a guy is standing at talking distance away with the gun in his pocket pointed at you you're not gonna go go all Jackie Chan on his ass and somehow get that gun and put him in some sort of feeble position hold, you're gonna get shot...

This idea that you could rely on martial arts (not to mention that it takes years of practice and training to get good where as a 9 year old girl could kill a dude with a gun (too soon?)) for self defense is stupid and unrealistic.

It's all about risk and preventing trouble. Raising your palms and leg off the ground is extremely unlikely to prevent a mugging. Lifting your jacket up to show your gun however... or picking your teeth with a switchblade... These things prevent danger.
Not to mention, people that are black belt in ass whooping don't get mugged because they look like professional kick boxers and nobody wants to fuck with that. The people that get mugged are people like the elderly, women, young people. People who wont benefit from knowing marital arts. Oh and before you say that martial arts prevents muggings because those that know it don't get mugged, the fact that they know it is irrelevant all that is relevant is that you look intimidating and you don't need to know any martial arts to look intimidating.

Two things I must address

First, sly eagles always hide their talons. You don't show them you know martial arts until you need to.

Second, here in america(or at least where I live) looking intimidating only gets you so far.

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28-08-2014, 09:14 PM
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
Quote:First, sly eagles always hide their talons. You don't show them you know martial arts until you need to.

That didn't address any of the downfalls of martial arts I pointed out.

Quote:Second, here in america(or at least where I live) looking intimidating only gets you so far.

Thus the gun.

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28-08-2014, 09:17 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2014 09:20 PM by Chas.)
RE: 9 year old girl kills shooting instructor with Uzi in accident
(28-08-2014 08:29 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(28-08-2014 06:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have not disagreed with that. But what you said was "...but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier." Huh

If anything I should only really go to why know martial arts makes owning a gun easier. You see a gun is a good weapon but it is not the best you are. There is a reason it comes as a last resort. When your gun does not work but you have a chance to defend your self you know martial arts. Let me put it like this in two situations.

Non-martial arts gun owner: This man is able to own a concealed weapon and he is walking to his car, then some one attacks him from behind. This man tries to reach for the gun but he can't because the attacker won't let him. The attacker eventually pins him down and beats the crap out of him or worst killing him

A martial arts gun owner: This woman is able to own a concealed weapon and she is walking to her car, then some one attacks her from behind. She is a fast capoeira practitioner and has learned how to attack some one while some one is striking her from behind. She is able to knock the guy down and get away as fast as she can and pull out the gun she has, thus ultimately able to teach the attacker not to fuck with her whether it be close range or far range, from front or behind.

As you can see even if you depend mostly on the gun, knowing close range martial arts combat can help making the gun easier to use whether it be getting away from the attacker to get time to pull it out, making sure even if the gun fails and there is not enough time to attack, or to stop the opponent completely and saving ammo for another day.

English is not your native language? Consider

I ask because "...but knowing martial arts makes owning a gun easier." doesn't make sense to me.

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