90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
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06-09-2012, 10:07 AM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
Except for that Bieber.... thing.... That's unforgiveable. But if you send us enough poutine and good beer we might be convinced to "forget" about him for a while.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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06-09-2012, 10:26 AM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
(06-09-2012 10:07 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Except for that Bieber.... thing.... That's unforgiveable. But if you send us enough poutine and good beer we might be convinced to "forget" about him for a while.

And smoked meat and Oka cheese. Yeah, that ought to do it.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-09-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
We should be glad it's not censored!
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06-09-2012, 12:30 PM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
(06-09-2012 10:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-09-2012 10:07 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Except for that Bieber.... thing.... That's unforgiveable. But if you send us enough poutine and good beer we might be convinced to "forget" about him for a while.

And smoked meat and Oka cheese. Yeah, that ought to do it.

And maple syrup. Oh! And Rush. More Rush please.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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07-09-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
I'm going to step out on a limb and say that their is (to some degree) a conspiracy. I don't know there is, but I suspect there is. Then I again I am a bit paranoid (for good reason).

Oligopolies, or even Monopolies are not necessarily bad things, they can mean efficiency, which can in turn mean more savings, better products (due to more centralized resources and efficiency), and a healthier environment. This, of course can also be a terrible thing for reasons that I am sure you are all aware of. They can corrupt the government, ensuring that they continue dominate the market for a long time to come while raising costs unfairly, and carrying out biased personal agendas. Also, a lot of other less obvious, bad things. Since a monopoly CAN (not is) only be ethical when it is ran by ethical people it is only a matter of time before it becomes unethical. It could, in theory, be ethical for a very long time, but it becomes increasingly unlikely as time goes by.

In America, monopolies are broken up (hence we are not a true capitalist country, we have a mixed economy). There is nothing to stop an oligopoly from continuing on for a very long time, because there is still competition. If I am Mr. Evil Pants, wanting to control everything I would give the illusion of a oligopoly (I am NOT saying this is what is happening). It is a lot easier to control a few companies than 10,000, and nothing (lawfully) prevents it so that's how to do it. This scenario too is doomed to fail eventually though...

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09-09-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
As for the OP, I am convinced that media are being manipulated by the government. Earlier this year I was at nation-wide anti-government protests. There were thousands of us. We protested just two blocks away from the national TV station. We invited them officially. Yet they refused to send even a single camera crew. We went in front of the TV building and filled the parking space. The TV employees darkened all rooms and just watched and photographed us from the dark windows. They felt probably a little uneasy, but we just wanted someone important and a camera crew.
Eventually when most of people left, they let out one man with a camera to make a "highly objective" report off the street. After some heated exchanges at this gesture they got him to talk and it turned out the central TV station in the capital city isn't really interested in reporting such events. They say no, so there's no report.
There were some reports, but the TV told there was only 25% of the people who actually were there. They said 5,000 in the capital city, but both protest organizers and present policemen said there were 20,000 people.

So it's official, the media lie to us and are controlled by higher powers. And I am not crazy for saying it. Just do what I did, go on a peaceful anti-government protest and compare it with what the media say.


(07-09-2012 07:21 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm going to step out on a limb and say that their is (to some degree) a conspiracy. I don't know there is, but I suspect there is. Then I again I am a bit paranoid (for good reason).
When businessmen get together in a private place and conspire, it's not called conspiracy, but cartel. Most of all companies are in cartels and all companies rip off their customers, it's called margin.
Such were lessons in my economy class... But there's more, there is actually no free market, (except some local farming marketplaces) it's all oligopoly, a few big companies owning almost everything and then dozens of small bottom feeders, they're called the hem. So next time you meet a free market proponent, remember your skeptical lessons, this one is either crazy, ignorant or lying. OTOH, this business environment has a positive name and usefulness for the worst psychopathical features of character. Heartlessness? Profit orientation! Spying? Research of the market! Aggressivity? Assertivity! Greed? High motivation!

All such facts of life considered, we really do live in an evil conspiracy or dystopia. It just doesn't involve chips in head or reptilian aliens. Maybe we need to realize, that market forces are real and have a will of their own. A simple will, but will nonetheless, a will to concentrate money on the top, like oil on water. Just as there is the religion virus, there is the competiton virus, the greed virus. And I'd say it's the worse one of the two, much worse.

(07-09-2012 07:21 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Oligopolies, or even Monopolies are not necessarily bad things, they can mean efficiency, which can in turn mean more savings, better products (due to more centralized resources and efficiency), and a healthier environment. This, of course can also be a terrible thing for reasons that I am sure you are all aware of. They can corrupt the government, ensuring that they continue dominate the market for a long time to come while raising costs unfairly, and carrying out biased personal agendas. Also, a lot of other less obvious, bad things. Since a monopoly CAN (not is) only be ethical when it is ran by ethical people it is only a matter of time before it becomes unethical. It could, in theory, be ethical for a very long time, but it becomes increasingly unlikely as time goes by.
Oligopoly and monopoly is an efficient way to produce things, I agree. But as you say, it is grossly misused for bad purposes. Whatever is saved, is used to increase production, spending and profit. So in the end nothing is saved, least of all the natural resources and people's health.
It's like when there were inefficient steam engines, that consumed lots of coal. Then someone invented an efficient one, hoping to spare the coal. This engine was so efficient, that people could afford it and built so many of them, that in the end they burnt much more coal than they otherwise would.
This is the meme of blind expansion, greed and endless competition, that drives the whole thing.

As a good opposite example instead, there is the Google corporation. It is my favorite example of a corporation that is not greedy and not evil. There were some controversial decisions (like with China) but these couldn't be avoided and there are remarkably few of them. It has a great power but virtually no history of misusing that power. It has an exemplary treatment of employees. Vast majority of Google customers do not pay money for their services. Google protested against SOPA.
I wish I could invite Google to take over my government, it would improve things so much.

(07-09-2012 07:21 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  In America, monopolies are broken up (hence we are not a true capitalist country, we have a mixed economy). There is nothing to stop an oligopoly from continuing on for a very long time, because there is still competition. If I am Mr. Evil Pants, wanting to control everything I would give the illusion of a oligopoly (I am NOT saying this is what is happening). It is a lot easier to control a few companies than 10,000, and nothing (lawfully) prevents it so that's how to do it. This scenario too is doomed to fail eventually though...
I'd say America is the most capitalistic country in the world. Anything more capitalistic than that is called fascism. Both capitalism and fascism are ideologies, just like all religions are. (remember how Communists fought the Churches as a competition)
As I wrote multiple times, no ideology is self-sufficient, any single ideology gets some things right and some things wrong. And the more extreme the ideology is, the more things it gets wrong.

I love this field of thought, I am personally very interested in researching an ideology-free or ideology-pluralistic-cooperative systems. Cooperative is the word, cooperation is truly efficient, it is the reason why monopoly can be efficient, everyone wins. OTOH, competition can be basically defined as making everyone else lose. Almost universal losing, it doesn't sound that good anymore, does it? And yet this is what rules our world, economic competition.
I'm not one of those extremists who say kids shouldn't compete because it hurts their feelings, I only say adults shouldn't compete with real stuff like money, food, man-hours, gold and oil. They should compete all they want in imaginary disciplines like hockey or chess and receive nice little medals for it that take just a little gold. But they should not play soldiers with things that keep us alive, or they won't.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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09-09-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
Luminon,

I appreciate your thoughts, but I am currently too lazy to type a detailed response, apologies, perhaps we can discuss it sometime. I will sum up my feelings on economics very briefly, please don't take this as an insult.

I am very pro-capitalist, because I value freedom (in my personal life as well as in my economic views (because they affect me personally; they are linked) above almost everything else. It boils down to who owns you. I own me, therefore what I earn through my work and ideas belong to me unless I voluntarily trade it or give it away. If I have not consented to trading or giving away my labor (to include the currency or possessions that I traded for my work) then that is theft, and coercion. I am not entirely sure what you meant by your cooperation system but if you are referring to a voluntarist society then I would agree, but I do not think that is what you meant. I will dissect it later when I have more time to think properly.

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11-09-2012, 12:26 AM
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
(05-09-2012 09:17 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(05-09-2012 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Just as a clarification: 90% of U.S. media is controlled by these corporations.

You know I'm a typical American. America IS the world. There are no other countries outside these borders. Except for that damn country to the south that keeps trying to sneak in and steal all our damn jobs. DEY TUK MA JOB!

I no took ur yob vato!

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11-09-2012, 02:53 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 02:59 AM by Luminon.)
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
(09-09-2012 09:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Luminon,

I appreciate your thoughts, but I am currently too lazy to type a detailed response, apologies, perhaps we can discuss it sometime. I will sum up my feelings on economics very briefly, please don't take this as an insult.

I am very pro-capitalist, because I value freedom (in my personal life as well as in my economic views (because they affect me personally; they are linked) above almost everything else. It boils down to who owns you. I own me, therefore what I earn through my work and ideas belong to me unless I voluntarily trade it or give it away. If I have not consented to trading or giving away my labor (to include the currency or possessions that I traded for my work) then that is theft, and coercion. I am not entirely sure what you meant by your cooperation system but if you are referring to a voluntarist society then I would agree, but I do not think that is what you meant. I will dissect it later when I have more time to think properly.
Very well. Why do everyone apologize and think I'd be insulted? I lost most of my ability to get insulted years ago, I literally wore it out. Now the only thing that I can get insulted is my intellectual pride.
I appreciate you too! Now I'll thank you for an opportunity to sort out my thoughts, something you don't need to respond to. Or respond in a week or a month.

You may be pro-capitalist, but not extremely so. As one man, you want a man-sized economic freedom, which is all right. You don't want huge rights for huge corporations.
I think people like you are the best part of capitalism. Capitalism must be small or middle-sized and local, employing local people and serving local people. Large corporations with large services should be partially nationalized, so they don't escape abroad with their taxes or outsource all workforce for a bowl of rice.

This might be a new idea, but the money don't belong to you, or shouldn't belong. If I paraphrase Jesus, look at who's face is on the coin. Caesars. So give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what belongs to God. Making money is (or should be) a state service. You can use them so conveniently to exchange goods and services, but you shouldn't be surprised if the state demands a fee for that, called taxes. Fair enough? Smile
However, as a small or middle local business, I think you're most useful where you are, doing what you do, not as a taxpayer. In my country people like farmers or self-employed are largely tax-exempt. The largest business like energetics or industries should have the highest taxes. That should allow both social welfare for the people and a relative freedom for a human-sized business.
Technically, you don't own yourself and you don't own the resources you likely work with to make profit. Legally yes, but technically they belong to Earth and Earth must have rights too, rights of our unborn children if you want. I think Earth should be protected if some idiot decides to take the irreplaceable oil and make some cheap gaudy plastic junk out of it, that will get popular over half of Earth and make him a billionaire, but will end up on the dump yard when the fad goes away. I don't care if this is within rules of the business game. It might be cheap, in terms of printed green papers with imaginary value. But in terms of material and energy it was very, very expensive. So I'm all for capitalism in right place and time, but when it comes to natural resources and the community, there are the limits of capitalism.

I think when people will feel socially secure, have leisure and be educated to take care of Earth, there would be a change in attitude towards work, employment or the need to expand business and make more money. Why bother becoming a millionaire, when you can fulfill your dreams for less?

As for economic cooperation instead of competition, that's just an idea for now. I'm not sure what it would take, except supporting diverse, small and local business and if it decides to expand and be a danger (competition) to business elsewhere, then it must take on a greater responsibility for the local community. Plus of course benefits for business that cooperate, like when one uses industrial products of another, locally if possible.
It's an exact opposite of Communism, where they nationalized even small business (or closed it down if it was too small to nationalize) and as you know, everything nationalized takes orders from the state, and the idiots in capital city can not possibly know what a local community needs. It was like the military, if you watched the show M.A.S.H. 4077, they often got a lot of shortages or misplaced materials. Communism in the extreme is very similar to big corporation capitalism with government lobbying involved, bordering on fascism. We get some hints of it in China, I think. Extremism makes all ideologies similar to one another.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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11-09-2012, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2012 02:41 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: 90% of the media is controlled by 6 mega-corporations
(11-09-2012 02:53 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(09-09-2012 09:37 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Luminon,

I appreciate your thoughts, but I am currently too lazy to type a detailed response, apologies, perhaps we can discuss it sometime. I will sum up my feelings on economics very briefly, please don't take this as an insult.

I am very pro-capitalist, because I value freedom (in my personal life as well as in my economic views (because they affect me personally; they are linked) above almost everything else. It boils down to who owns you. I own me, therefore what I earn through my work and ideas belong to me unless I voluntarily trade it or give it away. If I have not consented to trading or giving away my labor (to include the currency or possessions that I traded for my work) then that is theft, and coercion. I am not entirely sure what you meant by your cooperation system but if you are referring to a voluntarist society then I would agree, but I do not think that is what you meant. I will dissect it later when I have more time to think properly.
Very well. Why do everyone apologize and think I'd be insulted? I lost most of my ability to get insulted years ago, I literally wore it out. Now the only thing that I can get insulted is my intellectual pride.
I appreciate you too! Now I'll thank you for an opportunity to sort out my thoughts, something you don't need to respond to. Or respond in a week or a month.

You may be pro-capitalist, but not extremely so. As one man, you want a man-sized economic freedom, which is all right. You don't want huge rights for huge corporations.
I think people like you are the best part of capitalism. Capitalism must be small or middle-sized and local, employing local people and serving local people. Large corporations with large services should be partially nationalized, so they don't escape abroad with their taxes or outsource all workforce for a bowl of rice.

This might be a new idea, but the money don't belong to you, or shouldn't belong. If I paraphrase Jesus, look at who's face is on the coin. Caesars. So give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what belongs to God. Making money is (or should be) a state service. You can use them so conveniently to exchange goods and services, but you shouldn't be surprised if the state demands a fee for that, called taxes. Fair enough? Smile
However, as a small or middle local business, I think you're most useful where you are, doing what you do, not as a taxpayer. In my country people like farmers or self-employed are largely tax-exempt. The largest business like energetics or industries should have the highest taxes. That should allow both social welfare for the people and a relative freedom for a human-sized business.
Technically, you don't own yourself and you don't own the resources you likely work with to make profit. Legally yes, but technically they belong to Earth and Earth must have rights too, rights of our unborn children if you want. I think Earth should be protected if some idiot decides to take the irreplaceable oil and make some cheap gaudy plastic junk out of it, that will get popular over half of Earth and make him a billionaire, but will end up on the dump yard when the fad goes away. I don't care if this is within rules of the business game. It might be cheap, in terms of printed green papers with imaginary value. But in terms of material and energy it was very, very expensive. So I'm all for capitalism in right place and time, but when it comes to natural resources and the community, there are the limits of capitalism.

I think when people will feel socially secure, have leisure and be educated to take care of Earth, there would be a change in attitude towards work, employment or the need to expand business and make more money. Why bother becoming a millionaire, when you can fulfill your dreams for less?

As for economic cooperation instead of competition, that's just an idea for now. I'm not sure what it would take, except supporting diverse, small and local business and if it decides to expand and be a danger (competition) to business elsewhere, then it must take on a greater responsibility for the local community. Plus of course benefits for business that cooperate, like when one uses industrial products of another, locally if possible.
It's an exact opposite of Communism, where they nationalized even small business (or closed it down if it was too small to nationalize) and as you know, everything nationalized takes orders from the state, and the idiots in capital city can not possibly know what a local community needs. It was like the military, if you watched the show M.A.S.H. 4077, they often got a lot of shortages or misplaced materials. Communism in the extreme is very similar to big corporation capitalism with government lobbying involved, bordering on fascism. We get some hints of it in China, I think. Extremism makes all ideologies similar to one another.

I do indeed own myself. I am not a slave, and the earth is not a conscious being, I have no idea what you are talking about there. You seem to be mixing economics and social issues with meta-physics that I don't buy into. (Correct me if I am wrong.) As for cooperations, no they are not people and do not deserve the rights as people, but the people that work for the cooperation do. If that company wants to make things overseas because of lower tax rates, why not? They are over-regulated, I would do the same thing. Governments can only morally tax me if I consent to it. I rarely use physical money anyhow but that it not the point. They can collect more than enough taxes to fund themselves without making is populace slaves. If they tax my work then that is slavery. It is not reasonable. If they want to increase sales taxes, property taxes, gas taxes, tobacco taxes to compensate for the tax they are not receiving from my work, that is perfectly fine (within reason) because then I am choosing to accept that tax. Hell, I would much rather not use the US currency at all if given the choice because it is a fiat money system regulated by private banks that devalue the dollar creating a backdoor tax but that is another topic completely that I could rant about for pages and pages. If governments want a successful economy they only need get out of the way and let it work, free-markets regulate themselves pretty damn well. Fucking around with inflation rates creates bubbles that inevitable collapse sooner or late. You have to liquidate the debt or else you will turn into Greece. When governments attempt to use the tax for good it is always inefficient, and money is lost to bureaucrats who exist only to exist leaving less money for those in need. Charitable contributions worked well before and they could and would work well again.

I realize that post was kind of all over the place but it is a broad topic with many consequences and I get passionate, so sorry if it is hard to keep track of it all.

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