A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scripture
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03-09-2012, 11:35 AM
RE: A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scrip
(03-09-2012 07:26 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The thing about DNA and evolution is not that you have to understand and accept evolution to understand and accept DNA. DNA works fine without natural selection, although there are certainly sections of it that are difficult to explain without an understanding of the history of that molecule back towards the origin of life.

The key thing about DNA is that it wasn't known at the time of Darwin. On The Origin of Species was published in 1859. Fundamental experimentation with genetics only really began with Gregor Mendel between 1856 and 1863[2]. DNA's structure and simultaneously its role in genetics was discovered in 1953, almost a century later. With our increasing understanding of the behaviour of genes and of the mechanism behind those genes there have been ample opportunities to overturn the theory of evolution. We could have looked at DNA and found that humans and other apes actually don't share that much DNA in common. We could have found genes for feathers in Mammals, or genes for fur in birds. We could have found any number of things that would contravene the theory of evolution, but we did not. Instead we found perhaps more similarities than we expected to find between related groups. We found that vestigial features were not merely present in the bodies of specimens but also in the "junk" DNA that surrounds our genes. We even find we can tell things like which genes are actively being selected for by looking at how well preserved the junk DNA around those genes is.

Few theories are able to stand up to the amount of scrutiny evolution has seen, over such a long time, and over so fundamental a series of paradigm and technological shifts as the theory of evolution. It would be exciting and world changing to find evidence that it is false. Disappointingly I suspect we will have to live with this stubbornly robust theory for a long time to come Smile

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel

Isn't the fact that h. Neanderthalensis DNA exists in some, and only some of h. Sapiens lines proof positive that Evolution occurred ?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/...68,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/08/3...tists-say/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

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03-09-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scrip
(03-09-2012 11:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-09-2012 07:26 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The thing about DNA and evolution is not that you have to understand and accept evolution to understand and accept DNA. DNA works fine without natural selection, although there are certainly sections of it that are difficult to explain without an understanding of the history of that molecule back towards the origin of life.

The key thing about DNA is that it wasn't known at the time of Darwin. On The Origin of Species was published in 1859. Fundamental experimentation with genetics only really began with Gregor Mendel between 1856 and 1863[2]. DNA's structure and simultaneously its role in genetics was discovered in 1953, almost a century later. With our increasing understanding of the behaviour of genes and of the mechanism behind those genes there have been ample opportunities to overturn the theory of evolution. We could have looked at DNA and found that humans and other apes actually don't share that much DNA in common. We could have found genes for feathers in Mammals, or genes for fur in birds. We could have found any number of things that would contravene the theory of evolution, but we did not. Instead we found perhaps more similarities than we expected to find between related groups. We found that vestigial features were not merely present in the bodies of specimens but also in the "junk" DNA that surrounds our genes. We even find we can tell things like which genes are actively being selected for by looking at how well preserved the junk DNA around those genes is.

Few theories are able to stand up to the amount of scrutiny evolution has seen, over such a long time, and over so fundamental a series of paradigm and technological shifts as the theory of evolution. It would be exciting and world changing to find evidence that it is false. Disappointingly I suspect we will have to live with this stubbornly robust theory for a long time to come Smile

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel

Isn't the fact that h. Neanderthalensis DNA exists in some, and only some of h. Sapiens lines proof positive that Evolution occurred ?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/...68,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/08/3...tists-say/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

It's certainly another brick in wall.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-09-2012, 06:24 PM
RE: A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scrip
(03-09-2012 11:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-09-2012 11:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Isn't the fact that h. Neanderthalensis DNA exists in some, and only some of h. Sapiens lines proof positive that Evolution occurred ?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/...68,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/08/3...tists-say/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

It's certainly another brick in wall.
Another brink in Great Wall of China evidence that we have for evolution.

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05-09-2012, 07:33 PM
RE: A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scrip
The mere fact that there are similarities in DNA and in morphology between species does not support evolution. However the pattern of relationships does support evolution. Special evolved features such as mammalian fur don't appear in birds, and vice versa feathers don't appear in mammals. We observe explicit branching not only in our own close family tree but across the overall tree of life where it is possible to see where life began to diverge into multiple species by tracking the continuity of populations down each of those branches.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-09-2012, 10:29 AM
RE: A Bunch of Smart
(03-09-2012 04:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Science
Biology and Genetics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evol..._synthesis

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v46...09710.html ... (Genetic's DNA).
http://www.boston.com/whitecoatnotes/201...story.html












The Bible and The Theory of Evolution are 100 % incompatible. One is science. One is myth. There is evidence for Evolution, and there is not a shred of evidence that the Bible has, or even attempts to say anything on the subject, of Evolution.

I decided to start my own thread, and split this off from here. See my "The Old Testament Texts / Another Look" .

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-Look
Hi. Sorry for not responding earlier, have been away since Tuesday early.
I agree with you 100% on their "incompatibility" - not because of the reason you mentioned but because the Bible claims (creation) are 180degrees from the theory of evolution. I will have a look at the videos, thank you.
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09-09-2012, 12:29 PM
RE: A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scrip
(01-09-2012 07:25 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  When I'm asked about evolution by Christians, I recommend the book:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/cr.../21212.htm

It makes the case from an entirely Christian perspective that even if you completely ignore the fossil record and the distribution of species across the planet, that the evidence for evolution present in modern species DNA is irrefutable.
It must be an interesting book and accepting your conclusion, this means the Bible is false unless you are willing to "adapt" what is stated as truth to agree with the evidence you have for evolution.
It will be interesting to find out whether Andrew Halestrap supports ID and if not, why not? The Bible is fairly clear on creation (and also for instance the 6 -day creation).
It seems to me one has to "rationalize" quite a bit to reconcile the two.
But we are being sidetracked into a "evolution/creation" discussion. The issues are ; (1) the accuracy of the Bible as representation of the original text (2) the basis for deciding what is right/wrong.
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09-09-2012, 12:42 PM
RE: A Bunch of Smart as Shit Southern Baptists Trying to Reconcile Evolution w/ Scrip
(01-09-2012 07:25 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  When I'm asked about evolution by Christians, I recommend the book:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/cr.../21212.htm

It makes the case from an entirely Christian perspective that even if you completely ignore the fossil record and the distribution of species across the planet, that the evidence for evolution present in modern species DNA is irrefutable.
It must be an interesting book and accepting your conclusion, this means the Bible is false unless you are willing to "adapt" what is stated as truth to agree with the evidence you have for evolution.
It will be interesting to find out whether Andrew Halestrap supports ID and if not, why not? The Bible is fairly clear on creation (and also for instance the 6 -day creation).
It seems to me one has to "rationalize" quite a bit to reconcile the two.
But we are being sidetracked into a "evolution/creation" discussion. The issues are ; (1) the accuracy of the Bible as representation of the original text (2) the basis for deciding what is right/wrong. This is also in itself a "sidetrack" to my original post that evolution/creation is incompatible - and actually agreeing with the original post (see topic of this thread).
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