A Challenge for Moral Realists
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23-12-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 07:50 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  ...
Is that discussion worthy of a new thread or will this one do?

Or this one?

Lighter reading ... only 344 posts.

Big Grin

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23-12-2015, 11:51 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 11:55 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
Asserting objective morality, to me, seems like a category error. You're asserting that morality is some sort of force or physical property of the universe.

What would that force look like? How would it manifest itself?

We know Earth has had multiple mass extinction events, so the prevention of extinction of most of the life on this planet is not a characteristic of this "force".

So what good is it if it never manifests itself even in the event of mass extinction?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-12-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 07:38 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 07:32 AM)Ace Wrote:  holon form ?

It's just a philosophical concept of all things all being whole & continually apart of larger concepts compounded. It gets used in woo-explanations by people who believe some certain ideas of consciousness being a higher plane of existence.

in other words its the idea of heaven and hell mixed with platonism and substance dualism
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23-12-2015, 03:34 PM
A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 04:32 AM)Ace Wrote:  ACX has challenegd theists to give him one actually objective moral duty/value

I guess I'll bite. It's objectively wrong to torture babies just for fun.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-12-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 03:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 04:32 AM)Ace Wrote:  ACX has challenegd theists to give him one actually objective moral duty/value

I guess I'll bite. It's objectively wrong to torture babies just for fun.

More accurately, he challenged you to prove it. Watch the video to actually see the challenge.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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23-12-2015, 05:08 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 03:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 04:32 AM)Ace Wrote:  ACX has challenegd theists to give him one actually objective moral duty/value

I guess I'll bite. It's objectively wrong to torture babies just for fun.

You need to kill them quick. Adrenaline spoils the meat.

#sigh
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24-12-2015, 08:15 AM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 03:52 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 03:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess I'll bite. It's objectively wrong to torture babies just for fun.

More accurately, he challenged you to prove it. Watch the video to actually see the challenge.

I wouldn't know where to begin to prove it. It's sort of like a Solipsist asking me to prove that something outside of his mind exists.

But what I would say is that those who want to argue that it's not objective but subjective, are entirely amiss of our moral perceptions. That even if morality is not objective, morality would have the illusion of objectivity. Meaning that the prevalent expressions of moral outrage, to claim the immorality of something, are conveyed in the language of truth statements, not as sets of likes and dislikes.

The real argument, and I think moral reflective atheists philosophers are aware of this, is not whether morality is objective or subjective, but whether morality is truly objective, or just an illusion, like we might say of free-will.

And I'd say the evidence of things that are an illusion, and evidence for things that are real, have a great deal of parallel. That it doesn't take much to accept it as real, over an illusion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-12-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
I'm just 5 minutes into the second video, and one major issue, is that the guy conflates moral realism with moral absolutism, and that's a no, no.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-12-2015, 09:25 AM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(24-12-2015 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The real argument, and I think moral reflective atheists philosophers are aware of this, is not whether morality is objective or subjective, but whether morality is truly objective, or just an illusion, like we might say of free-will.


Nice double-speak there... Facepalm

Short answer: Morals are human constructs. The universe doesn't give a shit about us, and if we didn't exist, neither would our various moral and ethical systems.

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24-12-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(23-12-2015 03:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 04:32 AM)Ace Wrote:  ACX has challenegd theists to give him one actually objective moral duty/value

I guess I'll bite. It's objectively wrong to torture babies just for fun.
Or anyone can click the links dlj & others had posted to other threads, or the other half dozen you've brought up this aimed point.

I'm still not sure where your barrier is of sticking to the argument of it having to be an illusion opposed to social construct.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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