A Challenge for Moral Realists
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-01-2016, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2016 03:51 PM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
Fatbaldhobbit,

I wouldn't say "speaks" per say, as it is not within the traditional audible realm that comes from the ear.

I know it wasn't/ isn't mental illness because it positively affected my productivity and abilities within society and habitat as opposed to making them worse.

Prior to my salvation and even after I have had much experience with negativity and evil on many many varied and vivid levels, none of which or at all confusable with the intent of GOD. Simply put; one is forward and outwardly bebefitial to all involved, the other is hidden, invidious, greedy and causes only negativity when observed truthfully.

Direction of GOD is in no way imparted to me alone nor am I a mediator. None are refused the will of God if they but truthfully search it out with hope and sincerity.

If a task was ever easy then it never did get my attention or motive me. Patience, and perceverance will guide me by God's will and time and grace regardless of my general inability to covey any specific message or act any certain way.


I've been preaching that last part of your post for about half a year I quess. It's relieving when it comes from another, regardless of their intent.

Peace
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-01-2016, 02:23 PM
A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 02:08 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your assertion without evidence is unsurprising.

You assume objectivity with respect to morality and live in a black and white world. Your simplistic views and opinions are not based on reality but your biased opinion. Keep jamming that round peg into that square hole.

Morality translated into practice, into political positions and movements, tend to be quite complex. It's why you can have the man leading the charge to preserve it's institution, can also be a man who sees the evil in it.

Morality is not always a matter of black and white, there is great deal of grey. But in some case it is. No one particularly finds the question of torturing babies just for fun, as a moral grey area. When you ask children about examples of other kids hurting other kids, or acting unfairly, they don't finds themselves in a grey area, but just black and white.

Your discussion of morality as complex while ascribing to the belief that morality is objective and not subjective or relative, is contradictory.

You assert that unambiguously, slavery was wrong. But at the same time, describe morality as being a spectrum of gray. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-01-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:20 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Fatbaldhobbit,

Direction of gr8 is in know eat m nuts to me nor am I a mediator.

WUT?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Anjele's post
03-01-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 02:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But of course that's just a superficial helicopter view.
Society isn't a thinking entity, society is a collection of thinking entities.

For example in NZ prostitution is legal, however there are many NZ citizens who consider prostitution to be immoral despite the laws and despite the popular opinion. These individuals do not consider that prostitution is moral within the NZ society. And they are correct, because morality isn't defined at the society level. Morality is a personal belief.

Yes, morality exists at the personal level and can be extrapolated out to the level of society (we make laws and rules and have customs for a reason). I've never accused a society of being a single thinking entity, but it is composed of many who can agree on moral questions.
OK, but its the "can be extrapolated out to the level of society" which is the problem.
In NZ some people think prostitution is immoral and some people think it is moral and some people think it is neutral.
So how can this be extrapolated out to the society level?
In NZ is prostitution moral, immoral or neutral?
And for those kiwi's who disagree with the extrapolated society morals, are they wrong? For example, let's assume at the society level that prostitution is moral, for those Kiwi's that consider prostitution to be immoral, are they wrong?

Laws are governed rules they aren't necessarily an implementation of extrapolated morality.

At best you can say that within the NZ populace, the majority view is that prostitution isn't immoral, or perhaps simply that the majority view is that prostitution shouldn't be illegal.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Stevil's post
03-01-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:19 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 01:52 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think, even though you prefer to avoid the word, what you in the end here desire for your children, is probably no different that what my father desired of me, or what I desire for my own children. To be good, to value kindness over cruelty, to be honest, considerate of others, to be fair, to be just etc.... At the end of the day the reason why your son being bullied is troubling, is that you don't want your child to embody the sort of character and values of a bully, not just when he is a child, but just as much when he is grown and no longer under your control.

While we often are confused about deciding on policy matters, what the right thing to do is, given a particular situation, I think we're not particularly confused about what it means to be good, even if we struggle to articulate it. When I was reading the account of one the 12 year old girls involved in the stabbing of another twelve year old, one of the girls who stabbed the victim had spoken of how the good part of her wanted her to live, and the bad part of her wanted to die. We want our children to be composed of that good part, to be the sort that desires to save life, rather than to take it. You want them to choose this out of their own autonomy, but you still desire they choose this for themselves. In fact you'd likely take your children's moral failings, quite personally.

While you might try and find ways to encourage your children to be nice, but the more significant part here, is to why you desire they be nice in the first place. You don't have to be nice to be successful, or even popular. Even a bully can be quite popular, and a nice guy can finish dead last.

Different people want different things for their kids. I don't see how that tells us anything about whether or not real morality exists.

[Image: gazakid6.JPG]

As long as the parents are doing what God wants, it's moral. Right Tomasia?

Without immoral institutions like religion and corrupt governments (judging them as such from my moral perspective), we would be a lot better off as a species.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-01-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 02:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Yes, morality exists at the personal level and can be extrapolated out to the level of society (we make laws and rules and have customs for a reason). I've never accused a society of being a single thinking entity, but it is composed of many who can agree on moral questions.
OK, but its the "can be extrapolated out to the level of society" which is the problem.
In NZ some people think prostitution is immoral and some people think it is moral and some people think it is neutral.
So how can this be extrapolated out to the society level?
In NZ is prostitution moral, immoral or neutral?
And for those kiwi's who disagree with the extrapolated society morals, are they wrong? For example, let's assume at the society level that prostitution is moral, for those Kiwi's that consider prostitution to be immoral, are they wrong?

Laws are governed rules they aren't necessarily an implementation of extrapolated morality.

At best you can say that within the NZ populace, the majority view is that prostitution isn't immoral, or perhaps simply that the majority view is that prostitution shouldn't be illegal.

You're assuming that when I say "extrapolated out to the level of society" I mean it's a unanimous decision. I did not say that nor intentionally imply it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-01-2016, 02:29 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:19 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  [Image: gazakid6.JPG]
[Image: image.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-01-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're assuming that when I say "extrapolated out to the level of society" I mean it's a unanimous decision. I did not say that nor intentionally imply it.
I'm not making that assumption. I don't know what you mean by "extrapolated out to the level of society", whether than means unanimous, or majority, or determined by the governing power or what.

All I see is a diverse society with differing views, I don't know how a single answer can be extrapolated out of society. But I would be very keen to hear your view. I'm interested in it, not just wanting to argue with you. I respect your opinions TBD.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Stevil's post
03-01-2016, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2016 02:47 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your discussion of morality as complex while ascribing to the belief that morality is objective and not subjective or relative, is contradictory.

You assert that unambiguously, slavery was wrong. But at the same time, describe morality as being a spectrum of gray. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Some moral questions are difficult to answer, often involving a wide variety of considerations, some are less so. No one is going to debate whether or not torturing babies just for fun is immoral or not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-01-2016, 02:50 PM
A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 02:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 02:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're assuming that when I say "extrapolated out to the level of society" I mean it's a unanimous decision. I did not say that nor intentionally imply it.
I'm not making that assumption. I don't know what you mean by "extrapolated out to the level of society", whether than means unanimous, or majority, or determined by the governing power or what.

All I see is a diverse society with differing views, I don't know how a single answer can be extrapolated out of society. But I would be very keen to hear your view. I'm interested in it, not just wanting to argue with you. I respect your opinions TBD.

Governance. It's not relevant on certain issues of there is a plurality of opinion on something (is it moral or immoral to break the law and speed?).

As a governed society, we establish laws consistent with our collective morals. Yes, some will disagree. Humans can't collectively agree 100% on anything.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: