A Challenge for Moral Realists
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03-01-2016, 07:30 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not that I don't want to empathize, I don't know how to, because it all seems so alien to me, ...

Is it that you cannot imagine a world without God? That's child's play. Or is it that you cannot imagine a world without you? That's a bit trickier.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-01-2016, 07:31 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What you have said is factually incorrect. Even though I live in NZ, I am surrounded by people that believe in imaginary invisible undetectable magical creature which they call their god. As ridiculous as it is, it is apparantly true that these adults have this imaginary relationship and imagine having a one way relationship with "him".
I personally have a few friends that self identify as Christians, and my wife has a good friend who is a Muslim. My wife's parents are Buddhists, my sister in-law's husband is Catholic. My neighbor is Orthodox Christian. I work with a great deal of people from various beliefs. My kid's friend's parents whom I interact with hold onto a variety of beliefs.

I have never read the bible and I have never been to a church sermon, I have had enough conversations both online and in person to know that many Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of god.

Besides your online interactions how many in person relationships do you have with actual Christians that are representative of what you deem as "most" christians, in which I'm supposedly an outlier, lol?

Quote:Tomasia doesn't even belong to a church, he is a ministry of one, his religion is of his making although he adopts the bible as inspiration and the name "Jesus" as a focus and desires to call himself a "Christian".

lol, I do belong to a church, in fact it's an evangelical one, that subscribes to Reformed Calvinism. And I was raised in a fundie evangelical church. The sort of folks you categorize as "most christians", are my own family, friends, community etc...

Quote:Just the fact that you do not believe that the bible is the inspired word of god seperates you and your beliefs from that of many Christians.

I believe the bible is the inspired word of God, but probably not in the way you interpret that to mean.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-01-2016, 07:34 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 07:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not that I don't want to empathize, I don't know how to, because it all seems so alien to me, ...

Is it that you cannot imagine a world without God? That's child's play. Or is it that you cannot imagine a world without you? That's a bit trickier.

No, it's more like I can't imagine what it's like to be a white guy, lol. Sometimes I wish we could switch shoes for a bit, but that's not really possible, so at the end of the day I'm always just confused about that life. I like you all very much, but as far as empathizing in a way that allows us to really relate to each other, that seems very difficult for me.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-01-2016, 07:35 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:25 PM)DerFish Wrote:  I can live, love and interact with them though Spanish is my third language.

It's better that way Gefiltefish. Only language I speak is English and I can easily choose to not understand or even hear about a third of what people say to me. Big Grin

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-01-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Besides your online interactions how many in person relationships do you have with actual Christians that are representative of what you deem as "most" christians, in which I'm supposedly an outlier, lol?
Again, go back and read what I actually wrote. Don't interpret, just read the words as written. Feel free to make a new post including the quote that you think I said, Where I said "most" rather than "many".
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03-01-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:28 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 07:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think it has almost next to nothing to do with belief or unbelief, and almost exclusively to do with differences in backgrounds. That things like ethnic background, and experiences have more to do with this divide than a belief or lack of belief in God.

If your white american christian, or ex-christian, your lens of christianity is likely to be through that paritcular history and set of experiences, a christianity tied to a political structure, and history, unique sets of values, and perspectives, quite distinct from my own, of those of my community.

I have no relationship to that. You descriptions of your parents, your family, uncles, spouses, etc... find little parallel between my own. You see a history of Christianity tied to men endorsing Guns, and Confederate flags, who strung black folks on lynching trees. Where as my history connects me to that of slave spirituals, of the victims of western violence, more so than the perpetuators.

It's not that I don't want to empathize, I don't know how to, because it all seems so alien to me, and this is only exacerbated by the fact these interactions are solely on the internet.

I grew up in Iowa...didn't see a Confederate flag in real life till I moved to SC as an adult.

One side of my family is southern, however they are from an isolated island that was not like the Tara you describe. My grandmother wouldn't make the black men who came to work eat outside, as was the law of the state. She had better principles and morals than that.

If your mind is so closed that you can't accept that I and no one else here ever owned slaves there is no hope for open discourse with you. Get over your victim self.

You really do disappoint.

No one is playing the victim card lol, and it usually in exchanges like this that our difference become apparent. But you have your own history, sometimes proud, sometimes not, even in the story of your Grandmother, you identify not with the slave who ate inside, but to her life. Thats just the person your bound to empathize more with, who sense of life, you identify better with. You more easily identify with whites who freed the slaves, than the life of the slave himself.

This is not a question which history and it's stories are better, it's not question of morality, or superiority, or victimhood, but the idea of identity, of those who share a common sense of life and experiences with, that makes one group more relatable to us than the next.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-01-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, it's more like I can't imagine what it's like to be a white guy, lol. Sometimes I wish we could switch shoes for a bit, but that's not really possible, so at the end of the day I'm always just confused about that life. I like you all very much, but as far as empathizing in a way that allows us to really relate to each other, that seems very difficult for me.

What is a white boy's life? Do you think we are all trust fund babies strutting around bragging about how great it is to be white? I came out of Section 8 housing. I was discussing luck vs ability with one of my colleagues and my Laotian electrical engineer colleague who got out of Laos when Pol Pot was going all Pol Pot in the killing fields chimed in "There is no question. Luck is better. Ability is nothing without luck." Dude usually never chimes in.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-01-2016, 07:53 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 07:28 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I grew up in Iowa...didn't see a Confederate flag in real life till I moved to SC as an adult.

One side of my family is southern, however they are from an isolated island that was not like the Tara you describe. My grandmother wouldn't make the black men who came to work eat outside, as was the law of the state. She had better principles and morals than that.

If your mind is so closed that you can't accept that I and no one else here ever owned slaves there is no hope for open discourse with you. Get over your victim self.

You really do disappoint.

No one is playing the victim card lol, and it usually in exchanges like this that our difference become apparent. But you have your own history, some times proud, sometimes not, even in the story of your Grandmother, you identify not with the slave who ate inside, but to her life. Thats just the person your bound to empathize more with, who sense of life, you identify better with. You more easily identify with whites who freed the slaves, than the life of the slave himself.

This is not a question which history and it's stories are better, it's not question of morality, or superiority, or victimhood, but the idea of identity, of those who share a common sense of life and experiences with, that makes one group more relatable to us than the next.

You still don't get it. Your race has never been an issue with me. Why should mine be an issue for you?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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03-01-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  How about a poor white kid who grew up in the ghetto? Can you feel me now?

Probably more so than the white guy on a farm, but probably not as much as the black kid who grew up in the ghetto, or the Chinese kid who grew up in the ghetto.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-01-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:53 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You still don't get it. Your race has never been an issue with me. Why should mine be an issue for you?

Your race is not an issue for me. I'm sure your a phenomenal person. I don't like you any less because of your race, I like you just as much as I like anybody else, regardless of race.

It's just what should be an obvious fact, that we likely have a considerable amount of distinct experiences, brought along by the fact of being born to one ethnicity more so than the other. And these distinct experiences, create difficulties in relating with each other, and even as we can see in this case, understanding each other.

My life is likely to be as much of enigma for you, as yours is likely to be an enigma for me. There's no judgement here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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