A Challenge for Moral Realists
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03-01-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 08:20 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 08:04 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Not understanding should lead to wanting to better understand. You seem to be set in your mind that those differences are insurmountable.

I don't see it that way.

Our experiences are different; that makes things more interesting. But we are still people with families, lives, jobs, hopes and dreams, challenges, and everything that goes with being a human being.

I do wonder if these differences are insurmountable, in a lot of ways I think they are insurmountable. And this doesn't have to be about race. If you're a women, I might read everything I can, listen to all the descriptions of what it's like to be woman, but I'll never be able understand what it's like to be a woman, the a way woman is able to understand what it's like to be a woman. Or if your victim of sexual abuse, I might read all about what that's like, but never truly understand what it's like to be a victim of sexual abuse as someone whose been through it. Or in way that I can read all about fatherhood, but I won't be able to truly understand what it's like to be a father, until I have kids of my own. Or that folks who never served in the military, will likely be unable to truly understand what it's like to serve, the way those that have served are able to.

So I think there is something insurmountable here, that's not matter of failing to listen to each other, or not trying hard enough to understand, but insurmountable by a lack of a corresponding experience. This doesn't mean that we don't have common experiences, because clearly we do, but there are often some unique experiences, as result of circumstance we might never be privy to.

It is only surmountable if you wish it to be. We are all different one form another. I get about $1000 USD social security and have no understanding how the average Dominican family can possibly live on half that here in this country. I've been here almost five years and still don't understand that. But let it rest.
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03-01-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 07:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Is it that you cannot imagine a world without God? That's child's play. Or is it that you cannot imagine a world without you? That's a bit trickier.

No, it's more like I can't imagine what it's like to be a white guy, lol. Sometimes I wish we could switch shoes for a bit, but that's not really possible, so at the end of the day I'm always just confused about that life. I like you all very much, but as far as empathizing in a way that allows us to really relate to each other, that seems very difficult for me.
That seems frightening for a human. We are all the same human related brings with the same makeup afterall... I think. That pops might be some type of bot but everyone else seems humanoid.

You make barriers that I'm not sure serve any value to your thoughts. Luke when you contrast these claims of what a objective moral believing atheist or purposeful life believing atheist would mean in relation to you vs a "typical" atheist that disregards those concepts. So what to that point? They still relate to you and each other on a world full of details. And those specific differences are ones of slim minuscule grounds to most. Why the contrasts matters I don't see.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-01-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
Without Faith one might succumb to a belief in nihilism or think regardless of what they do that life itself is erelevent and or not worth more than one can acquire through physical means.
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03-01-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 08:49 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Without Faith one might succumb to a belief in nihilism or think regardless of what they do that life itself is erelevent and or not worth more than one can acquire through physical means.

There, you had a clever insight!
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03-01-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 08:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 07:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Probably more so than the white guy on a farm, but probably not as much as the black kid who grew up in the ghetto, or the Chinese kid who grew up in the ghetto.

No whities in your ghetto?

We did, some cool ones, some racists ones, and nearly all of them migrated out at some point. There was the guy who took issue with my mothers vegetable garden, because he believed it brought down the property value. And the kids who I used to play with, but at some point decided to blame the "indian kid", when they got in trouble with their parents. And the ones that attacked and ran my friends off the basketball court, because they weren't white. Or the sort that graffitied the walls of my aunt's house with the words "niggers go home"

There was the female classmate I played with in the backyard, childhood friends like Mark and Eric. And there was my first few week of HS, in a white part of town, where a group of white kids decided to say a slew of racial slurs, and the group of black kids, who were nothing but strangers, who told me to let them know if anyone bothers me. Needless to say within the first few months I transferred back to my poor neighbor school, which was really bottom of the barrel, but I felt more at home there.

I don't know how easily someone can relate to what it feels to be a stranger for nothing but the color of one's skin, particularly in a country that never been your own, but there is set of common experiences unique to this, among those of us that always will be strangers in a foreign land.

I can happily say these experiences are likely not to be relived by little nieces and nephews, who will likely never know what it's like to be a stranger at all, and that's moving in and of itself. Their experiences more likely to be shared more closely with the white classmates, than my own. Another good thing as well.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-01-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 08:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That seems frightening for a human. We are all the same human related brings with the same makeup afterall...

Yet, when white participants watch a video of a needle piercing someone's skin, "when viewers saw white people receiving a painful stimulus, they responded more dramatically than they did for black people." There is a sort of racial empathy gap. Which probably has little to do with your beliefs, or even values.

Clearly we're all composed of the same makeup after all, so that's not the reason for that divide, it's just the we relate better to those more like us, who look like us, who experiences mirror our own, whose sense of life we share in. Just like atheists here prefer a forum they share with like minded atheists, whose histories mirror their own, while our histories don't.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-01-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 08:49 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Without Faith one might succumb to a belief in nihilism or think regardless of what they do that life itself is erelevent and or not worth more than one can acquire through physical means.
So?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-01-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
So, I go to bed and on my return find 100 more posts in this thread.

Well done TTA for reaching >400 posts in a morality thread ... you didn't let me down.

I have some catching up to do but I'm still not seeing much disagreement except over definitions / relevance.

Meanwhile, I just dropped by to say ... congrats to you and your significant other, Matt. I hope all goes well.

(03-01-2016 01:25 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...
My wife is about 7 weeks pregnant with our first,
...

Thumbsup

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03-01-2016, 10:39 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 07:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 07:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  How about a poor white kid who grew up in the ghetto? Can you feel me now?

Probably more so than the white guy on a farm, but probably not as much as the black kid who grew up in the ghetto, or the Chinese kid who grew up in the ghetto.

You know nothing about my history. I really don't give a fuck whether you can feel empathy for me, but your presumption and ignorance are apparent to everyone but you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(03-01-2016 09:04 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(03-01-2016 08:49 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Without Faith one might succumb to a belief in nihilism or think regardless of what they do that life itself is erelevent and or not worth more than one can acquire through physical means.
So?
It's not true and negates or neuters any real potential for life to be otherwise. Chaos isn't beneficial to very much I don't think.
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