A Challenge for Moral Realists
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27-12-2015, 08:27 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(26-12-2015 08:52 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  As far as I cans tell, there is no moral obligation to do anything at all. There are never any actions that are either moral or immoral. All morality is subjective, so it doesn't really make sense to call it morality, but rather "preference".

We define our morality. We, as a society, define what is moral, right or wrong, within that society. I am not concerned with what some mythical deity or some eons dead philosopher called morality. We are here, we are all we have. We have to define it.

That said:
If we can agree that life is preferable to death, health is better than sickness, not-suffering is better than suffering, then we should be able to agree on a basic moral code.
As others have noted almost every culture that has existed has codified standards of behavior. Behaviors like rape, theft, murder, lying, etc. are discouraged. This seems like a good place to start.

(26-12-2015 08:52 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  There is no moral obligation to behave ethically or fairly. Sometimes humans are nice, sometimes they are mean, that's it. It doesn't mean they are supposed to be nice, and it doesn't mean they should be mean. We are merely describing what "is" not what "should be". The "should be" part can never be anything other than subjective preference.

We are an evolving social species. As individuals we form societies that benefit both us as individuals and as a species as a whole. Behaviors that have a negative effect on the individuals often have similar effects on the society, and if widespread enough, on the species.

(26-12-2015 08:52 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Now, you put on your grown-up underpants and quit believing in magic-morality.
Fuck off. I stopped believing in magic-morality several years ago.

Our species has relied on deity-inspired rules of behavior for thousands of years.
Because those divinely inspired morals justified all manner of atrocities, many societies are devising secular moral codes.

If we are going to devise our own moral codes, then it is our obligation to ourselves to devise better ones than those enacted in the past. Morals that produce the most good for most people and cause the least harm in most people

That is the morality I believe in.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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27-12-2015, 08:33 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
The other 60 pages weren't enough for ya? Big Grin

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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27-12-2015, 08:51 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 08:33 PM)Banjo Wrote:  The other 60 pages weren't enough for ya? Big Grin

Yeah, I'm about done. I'm still working my way through the philosophical parts (of my beliefs). Makes my brain hurt.Smile

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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27-12-2015, 09:07 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 08:51 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(27-12-2015 08:33 PM)Banjo Wrote:  The other 60 pages weren't enough for ya? Big Grin

Yeah, I'm about done. I'm still working my way through the philosophical parts (of my beliefs). Makes my brain hurt.Smile




#sigh
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27-12-2015, 09:21 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 08:27 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  We define our morality. We, as a society, define what is moral, right or wrong, within that society. I am not concerned with what some mythical deity or some eons dead philosopher called morality. We are here, we are all we have. We have to define it.

So if society decides that it's immoral to eat pork, then it's true that people should not eat pork? If society decides that it is moral to punish homosexuals, then it's true that people should punish homosexuals?

What you're suggesting is complete absurdity.

Society doesn't decide what I should/shouldn't do, it only decides what is socially acceptable and/or legal.
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27-12-2015, 09:27 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 09:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  So if society decides that it's immoral to eat pork, then it's true that people should not eat pork? If society decides that it is moral to punish homosexuals, then it's true that people should punish homosexuals?

What you're suggesting is complete absurdity.

Society doesn't decide what I should/shouldn't do, it only decides what is socially acceptable and/or legal.

Unless it becomes law.....

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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27-12-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 09:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  So if society decides that it's immoral to eat pork, then it's true that people should not eat pork?
No, it's true that society disapproves of eating pork.
(27-12-2015 09:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If society decides that it is moral to punish homosexuals, then it's true that people should punish homosexuals?
No, it's true that society disapproves of homosexuals.
(27-12-2015 09:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  What you're suggesting is complete absurdity.
Life IS absurd.
(27-12-2015 09:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Society doesn't decide what I should/shouldn't do, it only decides what is socially acceptable and/or legal.
There is no objective morality anchored in absolutes. Society decides what it wants to encourage and discourage and you either go along with it or suffer the consequences or change societies.
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27-12-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 09:21 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  So if society decides that it's immoral to eat pork, then it's true that people should not eat pork? If society decides that it is moral to punish homosexuals, then it's true that people should punish homosexuals?

What you're suggesting is complete absurdity.

Society doesn't decide what I should/shouldn't do, it only decides what is socially acceptable and/or legal.

What you describe with pork and homosexuals is an exact description of the system we use now. I have already (repeatedly) agreed with you that there is no objective morality.

What I am suggesting is that instead of us relying on religious doctrine, we devise a better system. How is that absurd?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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27-12-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 08:51 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(27-12-2015 08:33 PM)Banjo Wrote:  The other 60 pages weren't enough for ya? Big Grin

Yeah, I'm about done. I'm still working my way through the philosophical parts (of my beliefs). Makes my brain hurt.Smile

Mate read Beyond good and evil by Nietzsche. That's all you need. Then work out your own moral code and live by that. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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27-12-2015, 09:55 PM
RE: A Challenge for Moral Realists
(27-12-2015 09:40 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(27-12-2015 08:51 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yeah, I'm about done. I'm still working my way through the philosophical parts (of my beliefs). Makes my brain hurt.Smile

Mate read Beyond good and evil by Nietzsche. That's all you need. Then work out your own moral code and live by that. Smile

Just downloaded it from Project Gutenberg. Thanks!

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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