A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
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19-06-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 05:44 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 05:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  sigh.....guess I have to educate ol jeremy yet again...

1) Matthew 27:51-53
King James Version (KJV)
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Odd no where did anyone mention this amazing zombie invasion.....no where, outside of the bible where it was written 200 years after the fact.....yeah.

2)Why there are no records of Jesus Christ

It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life.

This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831-1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge:
"It is amazing that history has not embalmed for us even one certain or definite saying or circumstance in the life of the Saviour of mankind ... there is no statement in all history that says anyone saw Jesus or talked with him. Nothing in history is more astonishing than the silence of contemporary writers about events relayed in the four Gospels."
(The Life of Christ, Frederic W. Farrar, Cassell, London, 1874)

This situation arises from a conflict between history and New Testament narratives. Dr Tischendorf made this comment:
"We must frankly admit that we have no source of information with respect to the life of Jesus Christ other than ecclesiastic writings assembled during the fourth century."
(Codex Sinaiticus, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, British Library, London)

There is an explanation for those hundreds of years of silence:
the construct of Christianity did not begin until after the first quarter of the fourth century, and that is why Pope Leo X (d. 1521) called Christ a "fable"

3) "Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive” (Bible, Matthew 21:22).

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you” (Bible, Matthew 7:7).

These statements do not jibe with me as it is obvious that when one considers that billions of desperate prayers uttered over time have gone unanswered. I would presume that the millions of Jews who were massacred made a few prayers on their own behalf or on the behalf of their children to no avail. Millions of brokenhearted parents have prayed over their sick and dying children but to no avail. The handful of prayers that people think got answered is just chance and circumstance. Billions of prayers get uttered daily, none are answered by a diety....real or imagined.

4) Psalms 82.1 (KJV) God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

hmmmm gods, plural, i thought there was only one.....

5) Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Luke 23:44-48 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

unfortunately for believers, there is not one shred of evidence that this happened...zero, all of the royal scribes, historians, philosophers, and literate people who wrote down and recorded EVERYTHING of any significance, failed to note the whole earth going dark mid-day for three hours...an eclipse lasts about 7.5 mins max, so it wasn’t that, and there were two reknowned historians who recorded each and every eclipse, as well as any other astronomical oddity....nothing, .....zero. Never happened.


6) The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are five main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have all ready seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

this same fictional book further purports the world is flat,

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

corners? no no, sry it is a round sphere....ah, guess the lord and creator wasnt aware of that.

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 38:4-6
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth Laughat

You are at a distinct disadvantage, you believe in a fairy tale, a fairy tale based on a discredited, easily dismantled and disproven fictional book, filled with allegorical writings by communities of followers who penned them under more known author's names, pseudipigrapha by definition. Now if you wanted to discuss the philosophical theories of god then that would be a different, albeit subjective discussion, but if you cling to the bible as argument from authority, then you are beyond help. the world isn't flat, there isn't enough water on or in the planet to flood the world as per the mythical global flood that never happened, and jesus christ super star the miracle performing zombie didnt exist either as all writings of him were penned after his death by people who never witnessed the alleged events. Seek knowledge, it will help you with your 'faith".

ahhh taking jeremy to the woodshed is so satisfying. Laugh out load Evil_monster

Take all that you have written and start a thread in the boxing ring. simply copy and paste it and we will discuss it one on one.

if you are willing.

sure, but why not in an open environment? I have made a few of the hundreds of valid points that disprove the validity of the bible, answer them....I am sure I have heard the answers to these before, comes down to goddidit usually, or a play on words, but sure, answer them.

I just checked the rules it says;

Anyone may start a thread in the boxing ring, however, no member shall be involved in more than two active threads at any one time.
aren't you like jousting with several at the moment?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-06-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 05:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 05:44 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Take all that you have written and start a thread in the boxing ring. simply copy and paste it and we will discuss it one on one.

if you are willing.

sure, but why not in an open environment? I have made a few of the hundreds of valid points that disprove the validity of the bible, answer them....I am sure I have heard the answers to these before, comes down to goddidit usually, or a play on words, but sure, answer them.

I just checked the rules it says;

Anyone may start a thread in the boxing ring, however, no member shall be involved in more than two active threads at any one time.
aren't you like jousting with several at the moment?

because in an "open environment" too many childish "adults" like to interfere, post impertinent gifs, obscenities, and red herrings to distract those who are trying to follow our dialogue.

In a one on one, these distractions are eliminated.
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19-06-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 05:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 05:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  sure, but why not in an open environment? I have made a few of the hundreds of valid points that disprove the validity of the bible, answer them....I am sure I have heard the answers to these before, comes down to goddidit usually, or a play on words, but sure, answer them.

I just checked the rules it says;

Anyone may start a thread in the boxing ring, however, no member shall be involved in more than two active threads at any one time.
aren't you like jousting with several at the moment?

because in an "open environment" too many childish "adults" like to interfere, post impertinent gifs, obscenities, and red herrings to distract those who are trying to follow our dialogue.

In a one on one, these distractions are eliminated.

fair enough, are you in more then two debates at this time? I have zero desire to bruise any rules. I also do not hover here all day, so it may go a day between posts at times, i am in the military (duty tomorrow as a matter of fact) full time college student and have a wife and 4 kids to entertain. Drooling But I would love to enter a serious, thinking, discourse with you if you are capable of such. Close minded people can't learn anything.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-06-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 06:01 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 05:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  because in an "open environment" too many childish "adults" like to interfere, post impertinent gifs, obscenities, and red herrings to distract those who are trying to follow our dialogue.

In a one on one, these distractions are eliminated.

fair enough, are you in more then two debates at this time? I have zero desire to bruise any rules. I also do not hover here all day, so it may go a day between posts at times, i am in the military (duty tomorrow as a matter of fact) full time college student and have a wife and 4 kids to entertain. Drooling But I would love to enter a serious, thinking, discourse with you if you are capable of such. Close minded people can't learn anything.

fair enough. I will setup the thread and it will be the last one I can enter into. I already am in one currently.

I thank you for your service to this country (America I presume). Much respect and gratitude to you.

I was in the USAF. 3COX1 Comm. Ops. Stationed at Davis Monthan, Lackland, and Keesler.
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19-06-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 06:18 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 06:01 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  fair enough, are you in more then two debates at this time? I have zero desire to bruise any rules. I also do not hover here all day, so it may go a day between posts at times, i am in the military (duty tomorrow as a matter of fact) full time college student and have a wife and 4 kids to entertain. Drooling But I would love to enter a serious, thinking, discourse with you if you are capable of such. Close minded people can't learn anything.

fair enough. I will setup the thread and it will be the last one I can enter into. I already am in one currently.

I thank you for your service to this country (America I presume). Much respect and gratitude to you.

I was in the USAF. 3COX1 Comm. Ops. Stationed at Davis Monthan, Lackland, and Keesler.

Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-06-2014, 06:51 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2014 07:04 PM by Free.)
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(18-06-2014 08:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The following will be a response to Buddy Christ's critique of the Bible.


(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
GENESIS


First off, I'm skipping the whole "how were plants created before light/photosynthesis, how was light created before the sun, contradictions of which was created first" word games. Those take up too much time and words and pie.

Buddy Christ briefly mentions plants being created before light/photosynthesis, light being created before the sun and alluded that these somehow indicated contradictions. Instead of addressing a strawman, I will allow him to formulate an argument for me to interact with that demonstrates that the Genesis account indeed tells us that plants were created before light and that light was created before the sun and that this constitutes a contradiction.


(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

-The moon is not a light, it is a reflection of the sun's light.

The moon is a luminary, and thus is a light bearing celestial body. A luminary can be defined as a natural light-giving body, especially the sun or moon. - Courtesy of Google primary search result

(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  This is the first of many examples that suggest that God's omnipotence seems to be limited to the knowledge of the demographics and time period of when the Bible was written. Strange.

I think Buddy means "God's omniscience", not omnipotence.

Secondly, since Buddy was wrong about the moon not being a light, then his argument that God's omnipotence/omniscience seems to be limited to the knowledge of the demographics and time period of when the Bible was written which itself was based on his erroneous understanding of the term "מָאוֹר" is, as it stands, groundless.




(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

-Our? Just how many gods are there?

The answer to his question is in the very verse he quoted.

"And God said...."

It does not say: "And the Gods or gods said...."

There is one God.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! - Deuteronomy 6:4


(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

-even though they say that God only "rested" to set an example of how would should rest on the 7th day, couldn't the Bible just say "rest on Sunday" ??(question mark)?

First of all, Saturday was the 7th day of the Hebrew week, not Sunday.

Secondly, the word "בַּיּ֣וֹם" translated as "day" in English, can have several meanings in Hebrew. Buddy's comment seems to me to assume that the word signifies a period of 24 hours. However, the context does not necessarily require this and in fact there are arguments against this interpretation.


(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  It clearly says God rested, which means that this all-powerful being was worn out from all those valleys and hills and Wyoming and platypuses.

The word "וַיִּשְׁבֹּת֙" which is translated in English as "rested" has a rich and multifaceted nature. It can mean to cease, to cause to desist, to rest, to cause to fail and several other meanings.

Buddy's interpretation assumes that it means to to stop doing work or an activity and to spend time relaxing after you have been active or doing work which causes one to need rest. However, he has given us no reason to think this definiens is the one warranted by the text as opposed to the other possible definientia.



(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
The Garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil


-Sooooo... God takes these 2 newly formed, ignorant to life humans, puts them in a garden with a tree bearing food, nonchalantly goes "don't eat from it" ... then leaves... to go make Venus, I guess. And you know the rest.

So... WHY did he put them near the tree? WHY did he have that which he didn't want humans to attain be edible and tempting? WHY did he leave? WHY did he allow Satan the Snake to be in the garden, knowing full well that he would tempt them? Why did God design these 2 humans to be susceptible to temptation?

Then God comes strolling by (3:8 "walking in the garden in the cool of the day") at the PRECISE moment after they eat the fruit and goes "whoa whoa, what's going on here?" (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

It's like having a 2 year old child and going "Now son, I'm going to leave these delicious chocolate chip cookies sitting right here within reach of you. I'm going to the store to buy some Funyuns. Don't eat them. Bye!" When any caring parent would remove temptation, knowing that the child doesn't know any better.

So it's quite obvious to me that God WANTED man to F up royally. God created man with the sole purpose of imposing "original sin" upon him, so that he may feel guilty and grovel and ask forgiveness for something that wasn't his fault for all eternity.

That child who ate the cookies is now 40 and the parent is still bringing it up daily. "I don't care if you saved an orphanage from burning down today... remember when I told you not to eat those cookies and you did?"

Buddy is arguing here that if God were caring He would have made a world where Adam and Eve would never be tempted or if they were, that He would always remove the temptation from them before they could act on it. He then uses this as his reason for saying that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin.

Buddy has given us no reason(s) to think that if God were caring, He would have made a world void of the possibility of man being able to exercise his volitional capacities in a manner that was contrary to the revealed will of the One who endowed him with said volitional capacities. The burden is on him to support this assertion.


(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Cain slays Abel and is "cast out" arbitrarily from one remote location of this empty world to another random remote location. Then he worries that "every one that findeth me shall slay me."

-This is a strange worry since he is 1 of 3 people in existence. Then he sleeps with his wife to start the incestual chain of humanity... but where did his wife come from?

Here Buddy states that "the world" is "empty" but gives no reason for thinking it so.

He also states that there are only 3 people in existence. Once again, he gives no reason for thinking this is so. In fact, he contradicts himself when he says that there are only 3 people in existence. Now Adam and Eve make 2, Cain would make 3. But if Cain sleeps with his wife then there are at least 4 people in existence, not 3. His wife was obviously a woman who was a descendant of Adam and Eve.

(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days"

-I'm assuming these are literal giants and not "intellectual giants" or some modern term.

I will wait for him to address this.


This concludes my work on this response for now.

Unbelievable!

You sir have earned my deepest and most sincere respect!

Now please, would you please be so kind as to fuckoff?

I eagerly await your hastily contrived departure, and thank you ever so kindly in advance.

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19-06-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
It's really too bad that Buddy isn't here to chime in.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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19-06-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 05:16 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 12:43 PM)Impulse Wrote:  If your omnipotent gawd had wanted to communicate something to us either directly or through inspired works, this thread wouldn't exist because every one of us would already understand gawd's meaning. An omnipotent being wouldn't fail. That's all that really matters so your thread is moot.

Your argument assumes that everyone here would already understand what it is that God is trying to communicate to them.

What reason do you have for asserting this? At what age would humans understand what God was trying to communicate to them?

You also assume that because some here claim to not be privy to this knowledge, that therefore they never will.

Why assume this?

I assert, not assume, only that an omnipotent god could communicate in a way that would be understandable to anyone - which is automatically true by the meaning of omnipotence.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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19-06-2014, 07:29 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 04:46 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I find what I do here rewarding and fulfilling. I would find it thus even if no one here ever agreed with anything I said.

Sounds kind of self serving and selfish there Jeremy. It is all about your ego and nothing else.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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19-06-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: A Christian's response to"An atheist's critique of the Bible
(19-06-2014 02:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
to say nothing of the TBE (traumatic brain injury) Weeping

Yiah, and et ifficts our spilleng

(19-06-2014 04:46 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
I am not here to convince the dogmatic irreligious of anything. Such people's minds are already made up.

Translation:
Against those who have come to reject theistic claims through logic and reason, passive-aggression is my only weapon.
I am here to prey on the vulnerable.

(19-06-2014 04:46 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
As far as being slaves, a man is a slave to whatever he serves, honors, and obeys. We are all slaves to something or someone, for we all serve something or someone.
...

Speaking as a qualified Expert (with badges and everything) in Service Management, I feel it is my duty to point out the obvious mistake here...

Servant is to service as slave is to slavery.

The former is necessary for a civilised society.
The latter is an indicator of an uncivilised society.


(19-06-2014 04:46 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am a slave. I am a bondservant of Christ Jesus. I have traded a cruel taskmaster for the Lover of My Soul who inspires me to love with the love He has placed within me.

Shocking

I had a physical reaction to this.

Physical slavery often created a traumatic cognitive dissonance in that the slave was forced to love their object of hate... usually through fear of punishment.

For those of us who are free, it is painful to watch a slave defend their owner's purpose, practices and actions.

Actual slavery has largely been abolished. Abolishing mind-slavery will take longer but will go the same way eventually.

Don't give up the fight, my friends.

Knowledge is the key that will unlock the chains.

Yes

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