A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
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04-06-2017, 08:40 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2017 08:43 PM by OmniConsUme.)
A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
Another Quora Response:

Quote:Originally Written- Do other Christians realize that Hell isn't a Christian-based idea? It's a mistranslation of Sheol.

This is demonstrably false. In the Hebrew canon, the word Sheol was the term used to refer to the grave or the generic “place for the dead.” By the time of Jesus it was a consensus of Jewish theology, at least among those who believed in an afterlife (Sadducees did not), that Sheol was divided into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked dead. Rabbinic Jews continue to hold to this view, using the Hebrew “Gehinom” instead of the Hellenized Gehenna. Proverbs 7:27 refers to Sheol as having chambers, and Isaiah 14:15 suggests that there are different levels or depths to Sheol. Therefore, it is possible that a division in Sheol was conceived prior to the “intertestamental” period, but it cannot be known for sure.

As I said, Sheol refered to the physical place of “the grave.” However, it also refered to a spiritual place of the dead. The same way Shamayim can refer to the sky or the “heavens,” or how Har Meggido refers to a mountain and corresponding valley in the Middle East while also refering to the eschatological battle. In the same way, Gehenna refers to a physical place, but came to have spiritual significance. Most think Gehenna is a dump where trash was burned. This might have been true in the time of the Second Temple period, but it was counted accursed long before then. There is strong evidence that it was a site of the Molech cult who sacrificed their children by burning them on the altars of Molech. Molech is speculated to be a cthonic fire deity, and a couple Kings of Israel burned their children at this cite. (Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:2–6). Therefore, Gehinom has long been associated with fire, death, evil, damnation, etc. To this very day it is called Wady en-Nar, which is Arabic for Valley of Fire.

What can be known for sure is that Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, affirms the division of Sheol into Gehenna and Paradise. Paradise is also referred to as Abraham’s Bosom, and both terms are found in the New Testament.

The word “hell” is, etymologically, of Germanic origin, and so is the word “heaven.” The origin of words, however, does not indicate the origin of corresponding concepts. Hell comes from Gehenna, used by Jesus in the New Testament, which has its origins in Jewish thought. There are similarities to ideas like Tartarus, but so what? It is immaterial to the issue that the doctrine of hell, no matter jow uncomfortable it makes us, is biblical and attested to by the early Church.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

For further Jewish scholarship on Gehenna, see: GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Thoughts
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04-06-2017, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2017 08:57 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
(04-06-2017 08:40 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  Another Quora Response:

Quote:Originally Written- Do other Christians realize that Hell isn't a Christian-based idea? It's a mistranslation of Sheol.

This is demonstrably false. In the Hebrew canon, the word Sheol was the term used to refer to the grave or the generic “place for the dead.” By the time of Jesus it was a consensus of Jewish theology, at least among those who believed in an afterlife (Sadducees did not), that Sheol was divided into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked dead. Rabbinic Jews continue to hold to this view, using the Hebrew “Gehinom” instead of the Hellenized Gehenna. Proverbs 7:27 refers to Sheol as having chambers, and Isaiah 14:15 suggests that there are different levels or depths to Sheol. Therefore, it is possible that a division in Sheol was conceived prior to the “intertestamental” period, but it cannot be known for sure.

As I said, Sheol refered to the physical place of “the grave.” However, it also refered to a spiritual place of the dead. The same way Shamayim can refer to the sky or the “heavens,” or how Har Meggido refers to a mountain and corresponding valley in the Middle East while also refering to the eschatological battle. In the same way, Gehenna refers to a physical place, but came to have spiritual significance. Most think Gehenna is a dump where trash was burned. This might have been true in the time of the Second Temple period, but it was counted accursed long before then. There is strong evidence that it was a site of the Molech cult who sacrificed their children by burning them on the altars of Molech. Molech is speculated to be a cthonic fire deity, and a couple Kings of Israel burned their children at this cite. (Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:2–6). Therefore, Gehinom has long been associated with fire, death, evil, damnation, etc. To this very day it is called Wady en-Nar, which is Arabic for Valley of Fire.

What can be known for sure is that Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, affirms the division of Sheol into Gehenna and Paradise. Paradise is also referred to as Abraham’s Bosom, and both terms are found in the New Testament.

The word “hell” is, etymologically, of Germanic origin, and so is the word “heaven.” The origin of words, however, does not indicate the origin of corresponding concepts. Hell comes from Gehenna, used by Jesus in the New Testament, which has its origins in Jewish thought. There are similarities to ideas like Tartarus, but so what? It is immaterial to the issue that the doctrine of hell, no matter jow uncomfortable it makes us, is biblical and attested to by the early Church.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

For further Jewish scholarship on Gehenna, see: GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Thoughts

Yeah. It's screwed up.

1. There is no quote in the NT where "What can be known for sure is that Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, affirms the division of Sheol into Gehenna and Paradise."
2. Whether it's divided or not, Sheol is NOT where Yahweh and the "heavenly host" (and the many *divine beings*) lived, in ancient Hebrew culture.
The Jewish Sheol is where all deal "shades" went. It's not "paradise", and it's not where Yahweh lived.
No matter what this author is claiming, until after the Exile, the Hebrews did not believe in personal immortality, and even then, the concept of "exaltation" is NOT at all synonymous with what
today Christians claim about personal immortality. There also was no "hell" in Hebrew cultural history. Until it came into contact with the Greek concept of Haedes, people did not suffer in Sheol.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
"The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 :
"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-06-2017, 09:00 PM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
Bucky See if you can spot any other problems with this guy's version of events
https://www.quora.com/profile/Brandon-Mu...ristianity
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04-06-2017, 09:05 PM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
(04-06-2017 09:00 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  Bucky See if you can spot any other problems with this guy's version of events
https://www.quora.com/profile/Brandon-Mu...ristianity

Yeah it's all unsupported bullshit.

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04-06-2017, 09:08 PM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
Other than Bucky's excellent points, the guy's not entirely wrong. The concept of Hell did evolve in (some sects of) Jewish and then was adopted into Christian theology, and continued evolving after the spread of orthodox Christianity, as it picked up Hellenistic and then Norse-Germanic concepts to add to its repertoire.

And the funny part is that the guy admits it evolved, yet seems not to grasp that this is a poor indicator for the modern concept as being the "right" one, simply because Jesus might have been using it in the sense of the particular sect of Jews who thought of it as the Hellenistic version. It's tantamount to admitting the concept is simply a made-up snowball (or ball of excrement) of ideas that rolled downhill, gathering material as it went.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-06-2017, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2017 09:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
I just stopped reading the nonsense, "From Peter we know it all changed".
Rubbish. We know nothing of the sort.

No Galilean peasant/fisherman suddenly starts writing highly literate letters / texts which contain complex developed theology that developed (obviously) over decades if not centuries.

BTW, the guy is no "scholar". He claims to have graduated from a "seminary". That hardly constitutes being a "scholar".

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04-06-2017, 09:49 PM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
(04-06-2017 09:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  BTW, the guy is no "scholar". He claims to have graduated from a "seminary". That hardly constitutes being a "scholar".

So standard Apologist stuff is being fed to the new recruits
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05-06-2017, 05:47 AM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
(04-06-2017 08:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  1. There is no quote in the NT where "What can be known for sure is that Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, affirms the division of Sheol into Gehenna and Paradise."
He is likely referring to Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Since it's an allegory, it's dicey to claim that by using what was at the time a common and relatable Jewish trope, he was also endorsing it.
(04-06-2017 08:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  2. Whether it's divided or not, Sheol is NOT where Yahweh and the "heavenly host" (and the many *divine beings*) lived, in ancient Hebrew culture.
The Jewish Sheol is where all deal "shades" went. It's not "paradise", and it's not where Yahweh lived.
No matter what this author is claiming, until after the Exile, the Hebrews did not believe in personal immortality, and even then, the concept of "exaltation" is NOT at all synonymous with what
today Christians claim about personal immortality. There also was no "hell" in Hebrew cultural history. Until it came into contact with the Greek concept of Haedes, people did not suffer in Sheol.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
"The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 :
"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"
Quite right. The OT is far more annihilationist than most Christians are willing to admit. My former tribe dismissed verses like the above as poetic license and not literally true, ironically.
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07-06-2017, 01:57 AM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
(04-06-2017 08:40 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  Another Quora Response:
Quote:Originally Written- Do other Christians realize that Hell isn't a Christian-based idea? It's a mistranslation of Sheol...

Thoughts

There's really no point in simply copying and pasting stuff from Quora (as you do repeatedly here) and then just posting a single word "thoughts", effectively asking us to do your research. Please cease and desist—unless you have a relevant comment about the topic.

BTW, what's with all your empty -snip- posts?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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07-06-2017, 05:16 AM
RE: A Christian scholar Tries to place Hell in Ancient Judaism
(04-06-2017 08:40 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  Another Quora Response:

Quote:Originally Written- Do other Christians realize that Hell isn't a Christian-based idea? It's a mistranslation of Sheol.

This is demonstrably false. In the Hebrew canon, the word Sheol was the term used to refer to the grave or the generic “place for the dead.” By the time of Jesus it was a consensus of Jewish theology, at least among those who believed in an afterlife (Sadducees did not), that Sheol was divided into a place for the righteous and a place for the wicked dead. Rabbinic Jews continue to hold to this view, using the Hebrew “Gehinom” instead of the Hellenized Gehenna. Proverbs 7:27 refers to Sheol as having chambers, and Isaiah 14:15 suggests that there are different levels or depths to Sheol. Therefore, it is possible that a division in Sheol was conceived prior to the “intertestamental” period, but it cannot be known for sure.

As I said, Sheol refered to the physical place of “the grave.” However, it also refered to a spiritual place of the dead. The same way Shamayim can refer to the sky or the “heavens,” or how Har Meggido refers to a mountain and corresponding valley in the Middle East while also refering to the eschatological battle. In the same way, Gehenna refers to a physical place, but came to have spiritual significance. Most think Gehenna is a dump where trash was burned. This might have been true in the time of the Second Temple period, but it was counted accursed long before then. There is strong evidence that it was a site of the Molech cult who sacrificed their children by burning them on the altars of Molech. Molech is speculated to be a cthonic fire deity, and a couple Kings of Israel burned their children at this cite. (Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:2–6). Therefore, Gehinom has long been associated with fire, death, evil, damnation, etc. To this very day it is called Wady en-Nar, which is Arabic for Valley of Fire.

What can be known for sure is that Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, affirms the division of Sheol into Gehenna and Paradise. Paradise is also referred to as Abraham’s Bosom, and both terms are found in the New Testament.

The word “hell” is, etymologically, of Germanic origin, and so is the word “heaven.” The origin of words, however, does not indicate the origin of corresponding concepts. Hell comes from Gehenna, used by Jesus in the New Testament, which has its origins in Jewish thought. There are similarities to ideas like Tartarus, but so what? It is immaterial to the issue that the doctrine of hell, no matter jow uncomfortable it makes us, is biblical and attested to by the early Church.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

For further Jewish scholarship on Gehenna, see: GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Thoughts

Anyone that uses what Jesus says as proof of anything doesn't know what they are talking about. There are red letters in the gospels in the King James bible that the anonymous writers, decades after Jesus supposedly lived, claimed that a guy called Jesus spoke. That's a joke, this dude goes through an entire history explaining how the entire concept of hell has changed over time, then caps off his explanation with Jesus said... Facepalm

That's like explaining the entire history of Spiderman, how his origin story changed over time, then cracking up a Spiderman comic and saying "In issue 258, Peter Parker said this" therefore what I believe is true. Facepalm

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Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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