A Different Approach
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13-08-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Xino.

Christians exist. That's fact. There's no getting rid of them. That's fantasy.

They aren't weeds or pests. They're just like every other cultural group in the world. One part of a larger whole. Just like human beings, the species, are one part of a larger whole. The other species are just there.

So any strategy with the goal of eliminating Christianity is demagogic and utterly unrealistic.

Compound this issue with the fact that applying pressure to Christians forces them to dig in and radicalise. So when you do that, you're creating your own problem.

So instead of doing this, leave them be. Let them do their thing. Fight for what you like and want.

This strengthens what you like and allows them to de-radicalise (to use a terrible term). The ranks of the radicals shrink, while the ranks of the moderates grow.

The moderates will not spread the extreme version of their doctrine and it is this extreme version that is the problem; not Christianity itself.

So, for example, instead of fighting against creationism in the school, fight for proper biology. By doing this, you ensure that there is proper biology (which is no guarantee if you're just fighting against creationism). Also, moderates will not teach the extreme version of creation. They might not even care if it's taught in school or not.

Make any more sense?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-08-2012, 09:06 AM
RE: A Different Approach
thanks ghost. This makes a lot more sense.

I take it that this is an issue in the states then. Where I am there is no real issue with evolution being taught in schools and anyone trying to get creationism taught would be laughed out of where ever they went.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

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13-08-2012, 09:14 AM
RE: A Different Approach
(13-08-2012 08:57 AM)Ghost Wrote:  So, for example, instead of fighting against creationism in the school, fight for proper biology. By doing this, you ensure that there is proper biology (which is no guarantee if you're just fighting against creationism). Also, moderates will not teach the extreme version of creation. They might not even care if it's taught in school or not.
I'm not sure if I get your point here. How exactly do you fight for proper biology when it is and has been taught in schools for the last couple of decades?

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13-08-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Vosur.

You don't really have to, now do you? The sky is most certainly not falling. There's no need to fight. So relax. Grab a beer Cool

But to take the example to the extreme, say some creationists want to not just have creationism taught, but want to have it taught in biology class. That's not proper biology. You neither have to attack creationists nor creationism to maintain the integrity of proper biology education.

Hey, Xino.

That's because there are very few Christian extremists in Canada (outside of the PM <PROJECTILE VOMITS>).

Creationism exists in Canada, but in a far less rigid (extreme) form because most Canadian Christians are moderates. So maybe they don't think Genesis is literal. Maybe they think God created the Earth but not 6 000 years ago. They think Adam and Eve is a parable and that the fossil record backs up evolution.

Canada enjoys a very healthy dialogue not just between Christains, other religions, Atheists and secular interests, but between Christians themselves, thanks to the United Church of Canada. No one is attacking creationists in Canada because no one fears them or the idea. We're all just like, "Whatever, dude, just so long as I can get my double double from Timmy's and watch Soirée du Hockey on RDS, you can believe whatever the fuck you want."

The States is different entirely. There is a very strong radical Christian movement that is only getting stronger because people are trying to destroy it. People don't just fight for proper biology, they fight against creationism and want it banned entirely. They not only fight for choice, they degrade arguments about when life begins and the people who make them. They aren't content to simply have no belief, they have to tell Christians that they're deluded and stupid. They tell Christians, "If I get half a chance, I'm gonna wipe your religion off the face of the Earth." Americans are creating their own crisis.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-08-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: A Different Approach
(13-08-2012 10:23 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

You don't really have to, now do you? The sky is most certainly not falling. There's no need to fight. So relax. Grab a beer Cool

But to take the example to the extreme, say some creationists want to not just have creationism taught, but want to have it taught in biology class. That's not proper biology. You neither have to attack creationists nor creationism to maintain the integrity of proper biology education.

Hey, Xino.

That's because there are very few Christian extremists in Canada (outside of the PM <PROJECTILE VOMITS>).

Creationism exists in Canada, but in a far less rigid (extreme) form because most Canadian Christians are moderates. So maybe they don't think Genesis is literal. Maybe they think God created the Earth but not 6 000 years ago. They think Adam and Eve is a parable and that the fossil record backs up evolution.

Canada enjoys a very healthy dialogue not just between Christains, other religions, Atheists and secular interests, but between Christians themselves, thanks to the United Church of Canada. No one is attacking creationists in Canada because no one fears them or the idea. We're all just like, "Whatever, dude, just so long as I can get my double double from Timmy's and watch Soirée du Hockey on RDS, you can believe whatever the fuck you want."

The States is different entirely. There is a very strong radical Christian movement that is only getting stronger because people are trying to destroy it. People don't just fight for proper biology, they fight against creationism and want it banned entirely. They not only fight for choice, they degrade arguments about when life begins and the people who make them. They aren't content to simply have no belief, they have to tell Christians that they're deluded and stupid. They tell Christians, "If I get half a chance, I'm gonna wipe your religion off the face of the Earth." Americans are creating their own crisis.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


I don't think you've ever been to rural Ontario. Creationism is quite strong there.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-08-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Chas.

Firstly, who the fuck would want to go to rural Ontario? Ba-zing!!!

I have no doubt that it's present. The question is, are they moderates or extremists and why?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-08-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(13-08-2012 08:05 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  thx dlj (i'm canadian though).

I know and had I know the Canadian (and Croat and German etc.) for play-ground, I would have added that too.

I just know that the Yanks need a special translation sometimes. You know how simple they are.

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13-08-2012, 12:43 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(13-08-2012 08:57 AM)Ghost Wrote:  They aren't weeds or pests. They're just like every other cultural group in the world.

Tell that to the cockroaches, rats and viruses. They're having conferences right now debating what to do about human proliferation.

The analogy holds!

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13-08-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(13-08-2012 10:23 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

You don't really have to, now do you? The sky is most certainly not falling. There's no need to fight. So relax. Grab a beer Cool

But to take the example to the extreme, say some creationists want to not just have creationism taught, but want to have it taught in biology class. That's not proper biology. You neither have to attack creationists nor creationism to maintain the integrity of proper biology education.

Hey, Xino.

That's because there are very few Christian extremists in Canada (outside of the PM <PROJECTILE VOMITS>).

Creationism exists in Canada, but in a far less rigid (extreme) form because most Canadian Christians are moderates. So maybe they don't think Genesis is literal. Maybe they think God created the Earth but not 6 000 years ago. They think Adam and Eve is a parable and that the fossil record backs up evolution.

Canada enjoys a very healthy dialogue not just between Christains, other religions, Atheists and secular interests, but between Christians themselves, thanks to the United Church of Canada. No one is attacking creationists in Canada because no one fears them or the idea. We're all just like, "Whatever, dude, just so long as I can get my double double from Timmy's and watch Soirée du Hockey on RDS, you can believe whatever the fuck you want."

The States is different entirely. There is a very strong radical Christian movement that is only getting stronger because people are trying to destroy it. People don't just fight for proper biology, they fight against creationism and want it banned entirely. They not only fight for choice, they degrade arguments about when life begins and the people who make them. They aren't content to simply have no belief, they have to tell Christians that they're deluded and stupid. They tell Christians, "If I get half a chance, I'm gonna wipe your religion off the face of the Earth." Americans are creating their own crisis.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

The fuck, Ghost? I ask for a short answer and I get 3 pages. Someone else asks and they get the summary. Weeping

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-08-2012, 01:10 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Erxomai.

I only learned how to be so concise about it because of you. You are the wind beneath my wings Cool

Hey, DLJ.

Quote:Tell that to the cockroaches, rats and viruses.

Comparing Christians to cockroaches and rats and viruses (oh my) would be an example of not making them feel particularly welcome or valued. (Brief moment of ultra seriousness: The Hutu called the Tutsi cockroaches)

Think more like lions and hyenas. Different in many respects, similar in many respects. In competition with one another. Sometimes one wins out, sometimes the other. Such is life.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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