A Different Approach
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-08-2012, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2012 02:12 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: A Different Approach
(09-08-2012 10:29 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I buy it.

Actually, it's been happening for a few hundred years. Religion simply isn't the dominant social institution anymore.

Still, reduction in representation isn't extinction.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

80 percent of Americans identify with a religious denomination.
http://www.pewforum.org/Asian-Americans-...rview.aspx

The failure on your part is assuming that atheists are the only ones extremists have to demonize. If if the focus were to change, it would only be after their goals have been met.

Creationists have to not only fight atheists but other christians, and scientists. If atheists step out of the scene the other people still remain. You have to keep in mind they have many targets they can use for a force to fight. If all that fails they'll always have the devil.

Also if we simply let them push the creationist agenda into schools, then you'll have entire populations who will have no other knowledge that what they are taught in schools, and that knowledge will be creationism.


Quote:I am in no way shape or form suggesting that we let "crazy delusional people do what ever they want at everybody else's expense." That's a total mischaractarisation of what I'm saying. I'm saying that the action of attacking is CAUSING the crazy delusional people to appear in greater numbers. There is currently a positive feedback loop at work. The more you attack, the crazier they get, so the more you attack and the crazier they get. On a long enough time line, that leads to terrible things for everyone. The way to escape it is to call off the attack. That siphons the fuel out of the extreme movement.

You do realize the "attack" is simply asking them for proof and holding debates. Dodgy

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like fstratzero's post
09-08-2012, 03:13 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

Quote:The failure on your part is assuming that atheists are the only ones extremists have to demonize.

If by failure you mean something you fabricated and said I did and then told me I failed, then sure. Otherwise, not at all.

Quote:Creationists have to not only fight atheists but other christians, and scientists. If atheists step out of the scene the other people still remain.

What does this have to do with what I'm suggesting at all? It somehow only works for Atheists? I figured that my explicit statement that this approach applies to any cultural conflict would have covered this.

Quote:You have to keep in mind they have many targets they can use for a force to fight. If all that fails they'll always have the devil.

I do keep it in mind. I said explicitly that there is no getting rid of extremists, only diminishing their ranks. I said explicitly that they can still twist the mere fact of your existence into a threat. I said explicitly that it's about reducing the effective tools they have to recruit, not making it impossible to recruit (which would be an impossible task).

Quote:Also if we simply let them push the creationist agenda into schools, then you'll have entire populations who will have no other knowledge that what they are taught in schools, and that knowledge will be creationism.

To be crude, nowhere have I suggested bending over and taking it up the poop chute. I have said several times that I'm not advocating some kind of surrender.

Quote:You do realize the "attack" is simply asking them for proof and holding debates.

That's understating the situation in the extreme.

Even if your interpretation of Atheist involvement in this is correct, which would truly astound me, it's irrelevant. All that is required is the perception of an attack. That's not an out though. That's not just saying, "Well they're just going to react that way regardless of what we do." It's saying that like it or not, you're wrapped up in this situation and every action you take has a consequence. If one wishes to ameliorate the situation, one must be mindful of their actions.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2012, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2012 03:54 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: A Different Approach
I do apologize on the points where I miss understood or misrepresented your point, but I'm still having some issues.
Ghost Wrote:  I do keep it in mind. I said explicitly that there is no getting rid of extremists, only diminishing their ranks. I said explicitly that they can still twist the mere fact of your existence into a threat. I said explicitly that it's about reducing the effective tools they have to recruit, not making it impossible to recruit (which would be an impossible task).

I'm unsure what to say here, cause over the past few decades they've perceived attacks on their children through, heavy metal, dungeons and dragons, pokemon, harry potter.. etc

So if you want to reduce their recruiting tools you'd have to get rid of a large portion of things they consider satanic.

Quote:To be crude, nowhere have I suggested bending over and taking it up the poop chute. I have said several times that I'm not advocating some kind of surrender.

You know this whole thing.... "My remedy is to make the something you do focusing on your energy on building." Which implies that if you are focusing on your energy on building, then you are not spending energy on "attacking" extremists.

Quote:All that is required is the perception of an attack. That's not an out though. That's not just saying, "Well they're just going to react that way regardless of what we do." It's saying that like it or not, you're wrapped up in this situation and every action you take has a consequence. If one wishes to ameliorate the situation, one must be mindful of their actions.

Which means, the fight for evolution in schools, equal rights for LGBT, right to choose abortion, contraception, etc are seen as attacks.
So we spend energy on these ideas or focusing on our energy on building?

Thumbsup

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2012, 04:43 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

Quote: I do apologize on the points where I miss understood or misrepresented your point, but I'm still having some issues.

Thank you very much. That means a lot to me.

Quote: You know this whole thing.... "My remedy is to make the something you do focusing on your energy on building."

That's not surrendering.

Advocating surrender would sound like this, "Quit your job, go home, lock yourself in and do nothing until the secret police come for you."

Quote: Which means, the fight for evolution in schools, equal rights for LGBT, right to choose abortion, contraception, etc are seen as attacks.

They are, yes. Very much so.

But there is an astronomical difference between fighting for things and fighting against things.

For clarity, by that I mean that I can fight against the things blocking what I want, or I can fight for the things I want.

Quote:I'm unsure what to say here, cause over the past few decades they've perceived attacks on their children through, heavy metal, dungeons and dragons, pokemon, harry potter.. etc

So if you want to reduce their recruiting tools you'd have to get rid of a large portion of things they consider satanic.

We have to begin with the understanding that there will always be an extreme. If you refer back to the target model I used with DLJ, the centre point is the perfect moderate position. Utopian really. The person plotted there is probably boring as fuck Cool Most people are plotted adjacent to it. But there is always going to be someone plotted the furthest away. Whether that's just slightly more than everyone else or off the fucking chart in gonzo lala land, there will always be an extreme.

The point is not to lament that fact or try in futility to erase it, but rather to accept it and do the best with what we have.

For me, the best outcome is contributing to an environment wherein the greatest number of people are moderates and the smallest number of people are extremists.

The extreme is always going to latch onto some bullshit or other. Be that rock and roll, or D&D, or homosexuality, or racial purity, or whatever the fuck. But most of the time, moderates look at them and just kind of roll their eyes. "Really, dude? I think you need a blow job or something because Judas Priest does not represent the imminent destruction of mankind."





(Sorry, but that video just makes me happy Big Grin )

This is because most of the time, things are good and people are laid back. "Hey, maaaaaaan, ain't no thing but a chicken wing."

But when there is a crisis, or whenever the extreme can effectively manufacture a crisis, people are less prone to accept any more than they have to and more prone to find bogeymen to blame for their perilous situation. Hence the migration out to the extreme position.

All of this is to say that just as there is no eradicating the extreme, there is no eradicating the things that they can use to fuel their recruiting drive.

The only question is, since there is no eradication of these tools, then how can we minimise the effectiveness of these tools?

That's where my observation and proposal come in. What I'm saying is that by actively engaging in "battle" with them, you're giving the extremists the very thing they need, something they can point to that people won't roll their eyes at. "Look! See! This is the attack we're talking about!" More to the point, you're giving them the single most effective tool (actually, second most, attacking them militarily is the most powerful one).

It's like all those cartoons and sci-fi shows where they attack a monster but it only gets bigger and stronger because it absorbs their energy. That's a positive feedback loop. The only way to get out of it is to stop attacking the monster. That doesn't mean laying down in front of it and saying, "You may devour me now, oh Dark Overlord." It means finding a better solution.

So getting rid of all of their tools doesn't factor in. They'll always have them. It's purely about minimising what they have instead of maxmising what they have; which is the outcome of the current strategy.

Now think of this. Because things are so tense and because they currently have so many followers ("they" can refer to a lot of people these days), they can get away with bullshit they couldn't normally. There's like a floating chain of absurdity. People have to accept small things schematically before they can swallow the giant load of crap. If you back off, they'll continue spouting the big lies. As the impetus to migrate to the extreme diminishes, people will wake up and be like, "Wait, what the fuck is he saying!?!?!? That's fucking insane!!!" They won't just roll their eyes, they'll take a cleanse and run right back to the moderate position.

Hope that helps.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: A Different Approach
I personally would like to push them to the limit and have them removed from society.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2012, 07:14 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

How does one lead to the other?

At the end of the day, I'd love it if there were no corporations, but I have to accept that that is an utterly untenable desire. I can lament that fact, I can ignore it and try anyway in utter futility, or I can do something positive with my energy that will actually have an effect that I like.

More importantly, I have no desire whatsoever to see extremists of any ilk pushed to their limits. Because extremists at the limit have everyone in their back pocket, they have money, power and a fierce resolve to use it with impunity. When extremists are pushed to their limits, the result, historically, universally, has been genocide.

Just for a second, and no more than, imagine Fred Phelps with an army.

Now wash that thought from your mind so you can sleep tonight.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Ghost's post
09-08-2012, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2012 08:47 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: A Different Approach
(09-08-2012 07:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, fst.

How does one lead to the other?

At the end of the day, I'd love it if there were no corporations, but I have to accept that that is an utterly untenable desire. I can lament that fact, I can ignore it and try anyway in utter futility, or I can do something positive with my energy that will actually have an effect that I like.

More importantly, I have no desire whatsoever to see extremists of any ilk pushed to their limits. Because extremists at the limit have everyone in their back pocket, they have money, power and a fierce resolve to use it with impunity. When extremists are pushed to their limits, the result, historically, universally, has been genocide.

Just for a second, and no more than, imagine Fred Phelps with an army.

Now wash that thought from your mind so you can sleep tonight.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I think this is where you and I different.

By putting a bit more pressure on them the extremists seem to come out from hiding. To me I see it like squeezing the moderates and the extremists pop out.

As they come out, we can deal with them.

But I do agree that focusing the majority of ones energy should be on their research, work, ... what ever.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2012, 09:07 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

What does "deal with them" mean?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ghost's post
10-08-2012, 12:16 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(09-08-2012 09:07 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, fst.

What does "deal with them" mean?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Either by the police, or by social ostracization.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-08-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

And when they are the majority and they control the police?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: