A Different Approach
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11-08-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(10-08-2012 02:39 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, fst.

And when they are the majority and they control the police?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

FBI

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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11-08-2012, 11:08 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

The FBI is a form of police.

Nevertheless, when they control the FBI? (or any other alphabet soup organisation you can think of)

Point I'm driving at is that your solution assumes that extremists will never take over and that you'll always have access to both the moral high ground and the monopoly of force. But when extremists take over, it is they that control both. I'm asking what you would do when you lost the ability to socially ostracise and/or sick the police on them.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-08-2012, 11:15 PM
A Different Approach
Quote:I think this is where you and I different.

It took you 59 posts to figure out you two are different? [Image: smiley-laughing001.gif]

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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11-08-2012, 11:30 PM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2012 11:59 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: A Different Approach
One moderate christian said that going against an infinite being requires infinite punishment.

2.3 billion Christians content with the idea that the other 4.5 billion will burn in hell forever. Its an abhorrent idea.

I think that questioning that type of system is the best way to change minds.

Although we are of differing opinions I think extremists and their type will come out in the open. After that they will not have their blanket of moderates to hide behind.

I think however that it'd be best to say you and I are opposites. I have more faith that moderates aren't sheep who can be pulled in one way or the other.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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12-08-2012, 05:47 AM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, fst.

Why can't you just answer the question?

And for the record, I never said anything remotely like "moderates are sheep".

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-08-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: A Different Approach
(11-08-2012 11:30 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I have more faith that moderates aren't sheep who can be pulled in one way or the other.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

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12-08-2012, 09:22 AM
RE: A Different Approach
my head hurts.
so what I got is ghost is asking us to ignore the creationist and build upon our own arguments so that we can have a strong defendable position to sit on and destroy the arguments of others from.

______

so many walls of text.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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12-08-2012, 12:02 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2012 12:06 PM by Ghost.)
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, DLJ.

Why the quote?

Hey, Xino.

Quote:so what I got is ghost is asking us to ignore the creationist and build upon our own arguments so that we can have a strong defendable position to sit on and destroy the arguments of others from.

That is not what I am asking.

This is not zero sum.

Dear, forum.

Does anyone here fear creationism? All on it's own. The idea. Do you feel threatened by it, or do you think it's quaint? Backwards? Silly? Laughable? I think it's laughable myself. And as best I can, I don't concern myself with laughable absurdities. Because at the end of the day, most people can see right through bullshit like that. I know that even if it's taught in school that like other silly notions like sexual abstinence, don't do drugs, don't drink underage, don't masturbate, most of the people who are taught it are going to see right through it... in ideal conditions.

We do not live in ideal conditions.

The reason we do not, is because people are going after creationism. They're trying to deny it the right to exist. They call the people who believe it stupid. They want it to disappear. And the people who believe it are reacting the same way that everyone reacts when they perceive and attack. They're radicalising. In a radicalised environment, it's far more difficult for people to see through bullshit ideas like this. So they accept it. They accept it as truth.

That is an environment of OUR making, not theirs.

If we cease the assault on creationism, we let them all breathe. When they breathe, they can take stock of their surroundings. They can look at the ridiculousness that is creationism and see it for what it is; puerile nonsense.

This does not mean that creationism will disappear. That's not really within the realm of the possible so wishing for it is like wishing for a 12 foot penis; it ain't happening. But what can fuck off and die is the radicalised version of creationism. That's possible.

People jam into mega churches to listen to fire and brimstone rants because they are afraid. They're afraid of YOU. Don't give them a reason to fear you. Tell them that you don't mind if they're there. Tell them you have nothing against them. Tell them you like them. Don't be like Syria and Iran and be all like, "Hey, Israel, just so you know, if you let your guard down for a second, we're gonna wipe you off the map," because they will not only never leave their guard down, they'll arm themselves to the teeth and they'll come after you for making the threat.

You don't need to feel threatened by a little competition. That's life. There will always be ideas out there that are different than yours, contrary to yours, anathema to yours that are competing for space in people's minds just the same as your ideas are. That's life. That's not something we're ever going to escape. You can live beside other ideas, especially when they're moderate, because THIS is the face of moderate Christianity:





This man you can live beside. This man you can have a conversation with. This man you can reason with. This man you can cooperate with. Because this man is not afraid of you. This man is a moderate. He's a Christian pastor, but he's a moderate and has no reason to be afraid of your ideas.

Don't help someone like (insert extremist demagogue here) look at his parishioners and tell them, "Behold the face of evil. Fear! Fear! Fear them and destroy them!" Help someone like Rob Bell. Give him the tools to point to you, to look at his parishioners and tell them, "Behold. There is nothing to fear from these people."

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-08-2012, 12:37 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Shaka, when the walls fell
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12-08-2012, 12:43 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey Ghost,
I totally get where you're coming from. It's not an unreasonable idea at all. It's an obvious point that when people are threatened, they gather forces and fight back. No threat, no fight.

BUT I live in a country where Creationists are fighting pretty fucking hard to get their ideas put back into school curriculum. No one is fighting to put Science in the books because it's already there. If no one says anything, Creationism WILL become the norm again because the only noisy people are the Creationists. I haven't read your massive walls of text. Just please give a short answer to why we should let that happen?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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