A Different Approach
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12-08-2012, 01:24 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(12-08-2012 12:43 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  BUT I live in a country where Creationists are fighting pretty fucking hard to get their ideas put back into school curriculum. No one is fighting to put Science in the books because it's already there. If no one says anything, Creationism WILL become the norm again because the only noisy people are the Creationists.

As an example, and with great sadness, I offer up my own state of Kansas. It's pathetic that the teaching of evolution is still in question, but it comes up at least every six months. Oh, this stuff is kept fairly under wraps; the nation gets the sensational stuff which everyone knows is just a harmless story and "nothing" will result. This is just interference so no one will pay attention to the real damage being done.

Seriously? Here's July's installment. And I'm sure there'll be more to come next year. It's been hitting us hard since the turn of the century... yes, even before 9/11. In fact... this shit's been hitting pretty damn hard since around 1980.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-08-2012, 03:17 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Jeff.

That is the single shittiest episode of TNG and quite possibly the worst episode of television ever.

Hey, Erxomai.

It's not but, it's AND. They are doing that BECAUSE of what I'm describing, not separate to it. That doesn't invalidate what I'm saying, it demonstrates it.

Creationism might make it into the classroom. And there it will fail on its own merits.

Look at the places it is taught. Evangelical universities and the like. Those are systems that are closed off. There is no meme flow into or out of those systems. They are completely controlled. We're talking about the public school system where there simply aren't enough extremists to go around. The majority of people teaching creationism will be moderates. And if the pressure valve is released, then the student body will be moderate. Moderates don't like being taught extremist babble.

Really though. What does "WILL become the norm" mean? Nothing. It's Chicken Little stuff. Like creationism and biology are matter and anti-matter and if there ever mixed, one will destroy the other.

Ecosystems are held in balance by the law of limited competition. An ecosystem is comprised of interspecies and intraspecies competitors. What they do not do is try to wipe each other out (try being the operative word). When lions and hyenas compete, the lions don't say, "Man, this would be a fuck of a lot easier if we just killed all of the hyenas." The same applies to the ethnosphere. Cultures are in competition. The reason this is important is because competition means, sometimes you come out on top, sometimes you don't, but on balance, you do pretty good. It doesn't mean, you win all the time. To win all the time, you have to abandon the law of limited competition in favour of the annihilator strategy. That's when you actively try to wipe out your competition. That has disastrous consequences in both the biosphere and the ethnosphere. So yeah, maybe they put together a convincing argument or bribe the right judge and get it in. And right now, it's the extremist flavour. But let them. Relax. You have nothing to fear. Unless they try to remove biology, and there's no reason you can't fight to keep that in. Fighting for is different than fighting against. In time, when things deescalate, the extremist version will not survive. Let them hang themselves with their own rope.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-08-2012, 04:14 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2012 04:22 PM by Erxomai.)
A Different Approach
(12-08-2012 03:17 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Jeff.

That is the single shittiest episode of TNG and quite possibly the worst episode of television ever.

Hey, Erxomai.

It's not but, it's AND. They are doing that BECAUSE of what I'm describing, not separate to it. That doesn't invalidate what I'm saying, it demonstrates it.

Creationism might make it into the classroom. And there it will fail on its own merits.

Look at the places it is taught. Evangelical universities and the like. Those are systems that are closed off. There is no meme flow into or out of those systems. They are completely controlled. We're talking about the public school system where there simply aren't enough extremists to go around. The majority of people teaching creationism will be moderates. And if the pressure valve is released, then the student body will be moderate. Moderates don't like being taught extremist babble.

Really though. What does "WILL become the norm" mean? Nothing. It's Chicken Little stuff. Like creationism and biology are matter and anti-matter and if there ever mixed, one will destroy the other.

Ecosystems are held in balance by the law of limited competition. An ecosystem is comprised of interspecies and intraspecies competitors. What they do not do is try to wipe each other out (try being the operative word). When lions and hyenas compete, the lions don't say, "Man, this would be a fuck of a lot easier if we just killed all of the hyenas." The same applies to the ethnosphere. Cultures are in competition. The reason this is important is because competition means, sometimes you come out on top, sometimes you don't, but on balance, you do pretty good. It doesn't mean, you win all the time. To win all the time, you have to abandon the law of limited competition in favour of the annihilator strategy. That's when you actively try to wipe out your competition. That has disastrous consequences in both the biosphere and the ethnosphere. So yeah, maybe they put together a convincing argument or bribe the right judge and get it in. And right now, it's the extremist flavour. But let them. Relax. You have nothing to fear. Unless they try to remove biology, and there's no reason you can't fight to keep that in. Fighting for is different than fighting against. In time, when things deescalate, the extremist version will not survive. Let them hang themselves with their own rope.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

That was your short answer? Laughat

I guess my only further response to your suggestion to let the extremists have their way with something like Creationism is you're no longer talking about a closed system Christian school. You're talking public school and now an entire generation gets influenced by the craziness. Hitler Youth for Creationists.
(I don't get to use Godwin's Law much so threw that in there for giggles.) point being, you're now allowing the wackiness to spread which only makes it harder for it to die off.

I'm not saying the point you're making is wrong. I think I even agree on principle, but I just don't see it ever getting much traction in American politics and frankly see it as impractical in it's deployment as a strategy against Creationism.
But that's just me. What do I know? Drinking Beverage

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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12-08-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(08-08-2012 09:36 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 08:42 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  So. with 2 armies fighting a war of ideals, you're suggesting that the best tactic is for 1 of those armies to surrender? We'll have peace, but it will be a peace where every school has creationism taught as fact, because nobody opposed them introducing it.

So more of your children end up believing that evolution is no more true than creation. Evolution is pushed to the extremes and (eventually) 150+ years after Darwin published his work, he is consigned to the crazy bin, only accepted by people who didn't allow their children to be brainwashed into thinking something differently?

Uhm... no thanks.

In the USA, this might seem like a more-or-less parallel bell curve. In the UK, creationists are at the far extremes of cultural normality - and are openly mocked, by Christians and non-theists alike.

Matt said:
"... the nature of cultural transmission is such that if one side articulates the other's memeplex, their cultural system collapses. That outcome is not desirable ..."

Why is it not desirable? Is that not what has happened in the UK with the CofE accepting the Darwin meme?

And we might also be witnessing the beginning of the end of the catholic meme for the same reason (or because of the pedophile meme or the internet-awareness-raising meme)
The end of the Catholic meme couldn't come soon enough as far as I am concerned. This coming from a EX Catholic who was one of the victims of the pedophiles .

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a
free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their
political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their
own purpose. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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12-08-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Erxomai.

1 - You know my steez. That's how we roll Cool

2 - Nice Goodwin Cool Can't wait to see Iron Sky!

3 - Do you think Creationism is NOT being taught in schools? Official, oshmishial. It's happening. What I'm suggesting will undermine that.

4 - The kids won't be influenced. They'll get to see it for what it is in all of its nutbag glory.

5 - The point is that it WON'T die off, hard or otherwise. The only question is, which strain do you want to proliferate? The extremist one, or the moderate one?

6 - It may get traction in the US. MLK figured out how. But for sure, not an easy sell. Especially since it's counter intuitive.

7 - I'm not allowing the wackiness to spread, I'm allowing it to die off. But it's like holding in your farts for a week. You just have to accept that that first one is gonna peel paint.

8 - Super important distinction. It's not a strategy AGAINST creationism. It's a strategy FOR moderates.

9 - The extremist version of creationism is supported by authority; not fact. When the ranks of the extreme shrink and the environment becomes moderate, how many of this doomed generation do you really think are going to listen to authority Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-08-2012, 06:09 PM
A Different Approach
Oh My Gee! How did I miss the memo about Iron Sky?

Fuck the rest of this discussion. It's all moot anyway. I'm gonna go watch me some Iron Sky trailers! Thumbsup


Okay, so one more parting shot.
I graduated high school in 1983. During my whole education, if I was ever taught evolution as being anything more than just a possible alternative to Creationism, I must've been absent that day, because the only thing I knew about evolution until maybe a year ago was people who are mad at God would rather believe they're a monkey. Can you imagine being in your forties and learning about evolution, essentially for the very first time? I can. I do not recommend it. To anyone. If I have the chance to stop that from happening to just one more child, I'm not gonna pretend I shouldn't sumo a creationist out of the ring.

Now. Carry on. I have some Lunar Nazis to catch up with!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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12-08-2012, 06:50 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(12-08-2012 01:24 PM)kim Wrote:  This is just interference so no one will pay attention to the real damage being done.

Oh wow!

I went to The Onion link then back to the LATimes article and had to double-take cos I got lost as to which was the parody.

Kansas Kimmie, run away... far, far away. I have a spare room. Lemme know when you're coming.

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12-08-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: A Different Approach
(12-08-2012 03:17 PM)Ghost Wrote:  That is the single shittiest episode of TNG and quite possibly the worst episode of television ever.

By attacking my show you have made it easy for me to recruit and make your life miserable, so if that's what you want, then by all means, press the assault.

See what I did there?Lamo
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12-08-2012, 08:22 PM
RE: A Different Approach
brain still hurts. could someone explain this to me in baby terms. like an school fight or something. I'm good at math and science not thinking.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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12-08-2012, 08:32 PM
RE: A Different Approach
Hey, Jeff.

I did indeed. Twas most excellent jackassery Cool

Hey, Erxomai.

I agree. So fight for proper biology education. See the difference?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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