A Fallible God
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10-01-2017, 10:51 AM
A Fallible God
So one person very kindly asked me to copy and paste what I'd put in my introduction on to a discussion area so here goes :

So I developed a germ of an idea.. This whole idea of God as an omnibenevolent and omnipotent is wrong, instead doubtless you've heard of the idea of Imago Dei or God forming humans in his own image (Genesis 1:26-27 I believe)

Got me thinking.. What kind of image?
Are we a physical projection of God?
A mental projection?
A psychological projection?
Or perhaps a behavioural projection?

I think personally, it is a mixture of mental and behavioural with psychological

Consider this:
Yes every human being has unique characteristics
Some characteristics are shared by all
Like the capacity to make mistakes Smile

If we're created in Imago Dei and we make mistakes (just forget original sin for a minute) as we're (in my eyes) a psychological and behavioural projection of God
then.. God CAN MAKE MISTAKES Thumbsup

This obviously leads to omnipotence, omnibenevolence and omniscience and the inconsistent triad theory (That is, due to suffering, God cannot possess all three qualities stated above)

So with that in mind.. My personal view shows God as being omnibenevolent and omniscient but NOT omnipotent (otherwise I'd been born without disability)

Oh no. He's here - God
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10-01-2017, 10:56 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 10:51 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  My personal view shows God as being omnibenevolent and omniscient but NOT omnipotent..

Omnibenevolent?

Pediatric cancer.
Tsunamis, earthquakes and other natural disasters.
Famine.
Drought.
Influenza.

Omniscient?

Would have known these things would happen but created the universe anyway.


Such a being does not deserve worship, only contempt.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-01-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: A Fallible God
I think the modern Christian concept of god is a concept of perfection that is embodied in Jesus. Jesus is a mere avatar of perfection and this avatar is an individual's subjective viewpoint of perfection.

So an individual's subjective idea of what is perfect, is itself imperfect, so is based on a fundamentally flawed premise that the concept of perfection is universal.

This is why a god is not omnipotent or any other omni, all that god is, is an subjective imperfect avatar that reflects who we are.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-01-2017, 11:12 AM
RE: A Fallible God
Not to mention imaginary.....................

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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10-01-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: A Fallible God
Hey Cypher44.

My question is,

"Why must/should there be a deity?"

Thumbsup
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10-01-2017, 11:31 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 10:51 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Consider this:
Yes every human being has unique characteristics
Some characteristics are shared by all
Like the capacity to make mistakes Smile

If we're created in Imago Dei and we make mistakes (just forget original sin for a minute) as we're (in my eyes) a psychological and behavioural projection of God
then.. God CAN MAKE MISTAKES Thumbsup

This obviously leads to omnipotence, omnibenevolence and omniscience and the inconsistent triad theory (That is, due to suffering, God cannot possess all three qualities stated above)

So with that in mind.. My personal view shows God as being omnibenevolent and omniscient but NOT omnipotent (otherwise I'd been born without disability)
You are off to a good start, young padawan. Welcome to TTA.

Rabbi Kushner took your line of reasoning up in his book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People It was his view that god is not all powerful and that is the explanation for why he does not address human suffering. His heart breaks for it, it really does, but his hands are tied.

That is probably the most popular "Omni" that believers throw under the bus to resolve the so-called Problem of Evil (I prefer to call it the Problem of Suffering). Omniscience is rarely dispensed with because by definition a god who isn't all-knowing isn't all-powerful. Those two omni attributes really are interdependent and not entirely separate.

More recently I have seen, especially from a minority of the Universal Reconciliation folks, the notion that god is not omnibenevolent. They point to the OT verse where God admits to being the author of evil as well as good ("I, the Lord your God, have created them all"). The reasoning is that god alone, being all knowing, knows the ultimate effect of every action, so he alone can practice the dreaded "situational ethics" that are forbidden to us humans. He in his foreknowledge alone can do evil that "ultimate" good will come of it. I have a certain admiration for the way they "run to the roar" with this notion, and don't make excuses for their deity. Alas, they are of course just as wrong as any other theist.

Have you considered a further simplification in seeking out an explanation for your suffering? Namely, that suffering just IS, and is neither authored or permitted or directed? That, in a nutshell, shit happens? If not, why not? To my mind it is easier to accept things as they are and let it go if you don't have to explain or excuse or make peace with the will or permissiveness of some being who could, but won't, give a useful damn about your personal purgatory.
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10-01-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 11:31 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 10:51 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Consider this:
Yes every human being has unique characteristics
Some characteristics are shared by all
Like the capacity to make mistakes Smile

If we're created in Imago Dei and we make mistakes (just forget original sin for a minute) as we're (in my eyes) a psychological and behavioural projection of God
then.. God CAN MAKE MISTAKES Thumbsup

This obviously leads to omnipotence, omnibenevolence and omniscience and the inconsistent triad theory (That is, due to suffering, God cannot possess all three qualities stated above)

So with that in mind.. My personal view shows God as being omnibenevolent and omniscient but NOT omnipotent (otherwise I'd been born without disability)
You are off to a good start, young padawan. Welcome to TTA.

Rabbi Kushner took your line of reasoning up in his book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People It was his view that god is not all powerful and that is the explanation for why he does not address human suffering. His heart breaks for it, it really does, but his hands are tied.

That is probably the most popular "Omni" that believers throw under the bus to resolve the so-called Problem of Evil (I prefer to call it the Problem of Suffering). Omniscience is rarely dispensed with because by definition a god who isn't all-knowing isn't all-powerful. Those two omni attributes really are interdependent and not entirely separate.

More recently I have seen, especially from a minority of the Universal Reconciliation folks, the notion that god is not omnibenevolent. They point to the OT verse where God admits to being the author of evil as well as good ("I, the Lord your God, have created them all"). The reasoning is that god alone, being all knowing, knows the ultimate effect of every action, so he alone can practice the dreaded "situational ethics" that are forbidden to us humans. He in his foreknowledge alone can do evil that "ultimate" good will come of it. I have a certain admiration for the way they "run to the roar" with this notion, and don't make excuses for their deity. Alas, they are of course just as wrong as any other theist.

Have you considered a further simplification in seeking out an explanation for your suffering? Namely, that suffering just IS, and is neither authored or permitted or directed? That, in a nutshell, shit happens? If not, why not? To my mind it is easier to accept things as they are and let it go if you don't have to explain or excuse or make peace with the will or permissiveness of some being who could, but won't, give a useful damn about your personal purgatory.

To be honest, I could just toe the "shit happens" line but, I think I'm at that point where I've suffered, which in turn raises questions and like every human, with questions, I need answers (which incorporate my faith)

Oh no. He's here - God
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10-01-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: A Fallible God
Omnibenevolent god? What about flood? I would say genocide hardly speaks of benevolence.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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10-01-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: A Fallible God
Where exactly do Christians get this idea of an omni-benevolent G-d?
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10-01-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 01:56 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Where exactly do Christians get this idea of an omni-benevolent G-d?

From church I guess. Or it is simply headcanon.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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