A Fallible God
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10-01-2017, 02:30 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 01:56 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Where exactly do Christians get this idea of an omni-benevolent G-d?

I honestly don't know.

There was a shift I know in the Catholic Church (mostly in the suburbs) in 70s where priests became father Dan instead of Father O'Malley. Also the churches being built at that time were far more simple too.

Funny I was going to say touchy feely....we won't go there.

But they sang Let it Be...and crap like that. Every priest played guitar too (ok, I don't know but we had a priest who did).

That was around the time they began preaching god is love and ignoring negative stuff that "would bring people down as a total bummer".


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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10-01-2017, 02:36 PM
RE: A Fallible God
You can believe whatever you want but this isn't much of a God you're describing. Also this whole idea that God can make mistakes so he's just as fallible as any human? So he's basically just a very powerful human being who is also immortal, so just a very skilled and powerful wizard?

Why should a very skilled and powerful wizard deserve any kind of worship or love or admiration, just because he's a powerful? A lot of power or even love doesn't automatically mean this being deserves our worship even if they "made" us, so what? My parents made me and I don't worship them.

Also there are plenty of examples from the bible of God being imperfect, actually he's extremely imperfect outside of "Humans make mistakes, we are made in God's mage, therefore God makes mistakes, he's not perfect." For example, the guy couldn't figure a way to destroy his enemies because they had iron chariots...yeah this guy isn't perfect you say? Could've had me fooled!

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10-01-2017, 04:18 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 10:51 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  So one person very kindly asked me to copy and paste what I'd put in my introduction on to a discussion area so here goes :

So I developed a germ of an idea.. This whole idea of God as an omnibenevolent and omnipotent is wrong, instead doubtless you've heard of the idea of Imago Dei or God forming humans in his own image (Genesis 1:26-27 I believe)

Got me thinking.. What kind of image?
Are we a physical projection of God?
A mental projection?
A psychological projection?
Or perhaps a behavioural projection?

I think personally, it is a mixture of mental and behavioural with psychological

Consider this:
Yes every human being has unique characteristics
Some characteristics are shared by all
Like the capacity to make mistakes Smile

If we're created in Imago Dei and we make mistakes (just forget original sin for a minute) as we're (in my eyes) a psychological and behavioural projection of God
then.. God CAN MAKE MISTAKES Thumbsup

This obviously leads to omnipotence, omnibenevolence and omniscience and the inconsistent triad theory (That is, due to suffering, God cannot possess all three qualities stated above)

So with that in mind.. My personal view shows God as being omnibenevolent and omniscient but NOT omnipotent (otherwise I'd been born without disability)


The early OT stories tell of God talking to Moses face to face, being seen by 72 Israelite elders, standing on a pavement of sapphire, God showing his backside to Moses, and so on. God then to the early Israelite tall tale tellers meant that God was human in form and we were created similarly seriously and literally. Later biblical writers tried to abandon such rank anthropomorphisms. Similar controversies have happened in Islam.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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10-01-2017, 05:03 PM
RE: A Fallible God
omnibenevolence
cancer, tuberculosis, smallpox, ebola, the plague, Justin Bieber... need I say more?
if god is capable of helping and fixing everything then he either is incapable of doing anything or he just doesn't care or is sadistic

omniscience
the mere act of knowing something can make it false (knowing the future is a prime example of this)
if god knows something he doesn't like is about to happen he would try to stop it if doing so is within his power since that is the smart thing to do but stopping it would ultimately prove his prediction of the future since he himself altered the future

omnipotent
if god can do anything then he obviously isn't benevolent
if god can do anything then have him make a rock so heavy he can't lift then actually lift it, he can just make the rock heavier after lifting it and then try to lift it again then making it even heavier till he can't make it heavier or lift it whichever comes first, a human can easily perform this so why is it so hard for a deity ?

omnipresence
while this does allow god to know whats happening everywhere real time it introduces the inconvenience of what god having any actual form, if he is everywhere then him having an actual form makes no sense
according to theists their deity is always a human but the volume of space that form takes up is limited so occupying every inch of existence is incoherent and god being depicted as a human will ultimately be false
also im pretty sure the bible has examples of god NOT being in certain places.. I don't remember which part so can someone tell me cause I'm too lazy to find where its mentioned
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10-01-2017, 06:03 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 10:51 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Got me thinking.. What kind of image?
Are we a physical projection of God?
A mental projection?
A psychological projection?
Or perhaps a behavioural projection?

I think personally, it is a mixture of mental and behavioural with psychological

The entire notion of being made in God's image in any fashion is going to be problematic. God is infinite. That means that God is unutterably alien. So completely unimaginable that we don't even have words to describe it. And being infinite, any image of God would also be infinite. Unless you divided the "image" infinitely, at which point we aren't even a pixel, much less an image.

The whole "made in God's image™" business is just another holdover from ancient mythology where every God made humans in His/Her/It's divine image. No, we aren't at all narcissistic. It belongs with the rib woman, talking snake and the global flood.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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10-01-2017, 06:07 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 01:56 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Where exactly do Christians get this idea of an omni-benevolent G-d?

Anselm of Bec. Proslogion and monologion.

Some things are good. Some things are better. At the top is that that is the supreme good. That is God. Later adopted by Aquinas as the proof by degrees.
Since God is simple, God has no parts, his goodness is part of his necessary nature.

And then there are biblical verses that conclude God is good, and perfect.

Psalm 18:30-36
30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Psalms 100:5
“For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.”

And on and on.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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10-01-2017, 07:51 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 11:38 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  To be honest, I could just toe the "shit happens" line but, I think I'm at that point where I've suffered, which in turn raises questions and like every human, with questions, I need answers (which incorporate my faith)
Religious faith is a failed epistemology that neither predicts nor explains experienced reality, especially unwanted reality like personal suffering. I abandoned it long ago. I have suffered too, and life is too short to be confused, hurt, disappointed, frustrated and angry trying to explain that suffering in the face of the attributes of god that your faith promulgates. I have found peace in just accepting life as it is rather than as I or my faith wanted it to be.

One of two things will happen to you as a result of you looking into it; either you will figure that out, or your will figure out a way to rationalize around it. Alas ... my "rationalizer" burned out a long time ago. Best of luck to you whichever way it goes.
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11-01-2017, 12:01 AM
RE: A Fallible God
Infallibility is overrated.

#sigh
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11-01-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 11:28 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hey Cypher44.

My question is,

"Why must/should there be a deity?"

Thumbsup

You can read my thread on this but put it succinctly here..

Religions are amazing at indoctrination.. the idea of deity has become so ingrained in the reality of a lot of people that the idea itself gives structure to their lives.

Oh no. He's here - God
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11-01-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(10-01-2017 12:58 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Omnibenevolent god? What about flood? I would say genocide hardly speaks of benevolence.

Having given myself more time to think.

I think people see God how they wish to
If they want to see a God whose loving, caring and powerful, they will

Oh no. He's here - God
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