A Fallible God
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12-01-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(12-01-2017 01:20 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  My parents did it.
I was raised in society full of Christians in South India
And yes.. I am happy.. why should I change?
I do not consult the Bible as a source of morality
I use reason instead

I pray to him so I have peace of mind.. That's it really.
This is way more self-awareness than I normally expect from someone of fundamentalist origins, yet still within the embrace of the faith. No offense ... that is actually a compliment.

So you admit the determining factor of whether you worship Jesus or Vishnu is what your family of origin worships. That you remain in the faith because you find aspects of it comforting and it spares you the conflict and social pressure of leaving it.

Fair enough. It's not for me to thread that needle for anyone but myself. All I can say is that the cognitive dissonance was so painful, I was NOT happy in the faith, I was actively unhappy. And a big reason for that was that I had to somehow square god's indifference to my suffering and my family's suffering, with the constant happy-clappy joy-joy feelings I was expected to have because I was a Christian and not a lost shade wandering the world like those godless atheists.

I also admit that I had a ridiculously easy time leaving the faith relative to many people. My wife at the time loved me for me, not by faith. She was a little sad that I no longer believed, but it was not relationship damaging or relationship ending in any way. My parents and siblings lived 2000 miles away and didn't ask questions. My in-laws were equally discrete and distant. I didn't have to face shaming, censure, or conflict because of my changing worldview and beliefs. It wasn't until some 10 plus years after I was willing to firmly self-identify as atheist, that my oldest surviving brother (70 at the time) point blanked said, "you don't believe in god anymore, do you?" And I said, no. And he said "Too bad" and changed the subject. And has not treated me badly since either. I think he and his wife figure it's some kind of phase and in any case he's to old and tired to care.

So ... easy for ME to say to just ditch it all, because I found prayer pointless and in fact depressing and I had no real price to pay for my apostasy. You somehow find prayer comforting, probably because you either have no huge personal pain points or because you approach it less in the imprecatory manner and more in a meditative mode. And you may well have serious consequences to weigh from your family of origin were you to come out of the closet or even become less overtly devout.

I wonder sometimes how many theists there are like you who understand it's all BS all the time (or at least most of the time) and yet don't change their outward identifications or necessarily even admit it to themselves. I was like that for probably 10 or 15 years before I made my final exit, just on sheer inertia. One of my surviving brothers is like that too, still has folksy little plaques on his wall with Christian sayings, identifies as Christian, but hasn't attended church since forever, and in private will agree with everything I say about my unbelief. The other one, as mentioned above, is still a staunch fundamentalist but strangely indifferent to his little brother's apostasy.

My guess is that more fundamentalists than not, have lost any real enthusiasm and passion for their faith. They may try to rekindle it now and then, but without success. But at some level they know better.
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14-01-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(11-01-2017 12:38 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Cypher44,

You seem to be all over the place with your remarks. How about spelling out what your beliefs are regarding a god instead of so much speculating about what anybody in general might think or believe? Speculating is also fine, but it might make more sense if we had some context.

My personal God is simple :

He has the power to do things, he loves us, BUT he has severely limited knowledge:

To explain this.. I will use an analogy

Imagine.. God is a programmer
God is creating a program
God has ability and the knowledge to create the program
But God doesn't have the ability to create a perfect program
Therefore each program he makes is inherently imperfect
and contains errors, God doesn't know how to fix these errors
and even if he does eventually fix a "bug", a new problem crops up

-C

Oh no. He's here - God
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14-01-2017, 08:06 AM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2017 01:00 PM by mordant.)
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 07:54 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 12:38 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Cypher44,

You seem to be all over the place with your remarks. How about spelling out what your beliefs are regarding a god instead of so much speculating about what anybody in general might think or believe? Speculating is also fine, but it might make more sense if we had some context.

My personal God is simple :

He has the power to do things, he loves us, BUT he has severely limited knowledge:

To explain this.. I will use an analogy

Imagine.. God is a programmer
God is creating a program
God has ability and the knowledge to create the program
But God doesn't have the ability to create a perfect program
Therefore each program he makes is inherently imperfect
and contains errors, God doesn't know how to fix these errors
and even if he does eventually fix a "bug", a new problem crops up

-C
So it is omniscience you are throwing under the bus to achieve your theodicy.

In doing so you are also throwing omnipotence under the bus, because a god who is not all knowing is inherently not all-powerful.

By your own observations I don't think you really believe he's omnibenevolent either.

As a former fundamentalist I have a problem seeing any point or utility in a god who is not at least one of those things (all loving, all knowing, all powerful) as to me now you are just dealing with a hapless being who is at best indifferent and at worst, an insufferable and cruel asshole. The most you can hope is that his presumably superior power might be used on your behalf more often than not, but it's up to his caprice and is damnably hard to predict. Oh wait, that's right: answered prayer is indistinguishable from random happenstance.

Which brings me back to the same question I've been asking myself: why DO you bother?
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14-01-2017, 08:14 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 08:06 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 07:54 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  My personal God is simple :

He has the power to do things, he loves us, BUT he has severely limited knowledge:

To explain this.. I will use an analogy

Imagine.. God is a programmer
God is creating a program
God has ability and the knowledge to create the program
But God doesn't have the ability to create a perfect program
Therefore each program he makes is inherently imperfect
and contains errors, God doesn't know how to fix these errors
and even if he does eventually fix a "bug", a new problem crops up

-C
So it is omniscience you are throwing under the bus to achieve your theodicy.

In doing so you are also throwing omnipotence under the bus, because a god who is not all knowing is inherently not all-powerful.

By your own observations I don't think you really believe he's omnibenevolent either.

As a former fundamentalist I have problem seeing any point or utility in a god who is not at least one of those things (all loving, all knowing, all powerful) as to me now you are just dealing with a hapless being who is at best indifferent and at worst, an insufferable and cruel asshole. The most you can hope is that his presumably superior power might be used on your behalf more often than not, but it's up to his caprice and is damnably hard to predict. Oh wait, that's right: answered prayer is indistinguishable from random happenstance.

Which brings me back to the same question I've been asking myself: why DO you bother?

Why do I bother..

I worship him for one SINGULAR reason..
I was born a Christian..
My family was Christian

As for why I bother.. even when I could just do away with such beliefs.. I can't face the social pressure of leaving and I am not so unhappy that I feel compelled to leave.

Oh no. He's here - God
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14-01-2017, 09:12 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 07:54 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  My personal God is simple :

He has the power to do things, he loves us, BUT he has severely limited knowledge:

To explain this.. I will use an analogy

Imagine.. God is a programmer
God is creating a program
God has ability and the knowledge to create the program
But God doesn't have the ability to create a perfect program
Therefore each program he makes is inherently imperfect
and contains errors, God doesn't know how to fix these errors
and even if he does eventually fix a "bug", a new problem crops up

If you are going to imagine a god you might as well imagine a competent one

(14-01-2017 08:14 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  I worship him for one SINGULAR reason..
I was born a Christian..
My family was Christian

As for why I bother.. even when I could just do away with such beliefs.. I can't face the social pressure of leaving and I am not so unhappy that I feel compelled to leave.

So you have no good reason to believe any of it is actually true and are too insecure to have any integrity.

Noted

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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14-01-2017, 09:22 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:12 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 07:54 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  My personal God is simple :

He has the power to do things, he loves us, BUT he has severely limited knowledge:

To explain this.. I will use an analogy

Imagine.. God is a programmer
God is creating a program
God has ability and the knowledge to create the program
But God doesn't have the ability to create a perfect program
Therefore each program he makes is inherently imperfect
and contains errors, God doesn't know how to fix these errors
and even if he does eventually fix a "bug", a new problem crops up

If you are going to imagine a god you might as well imagine a competent one

(14-01-2017 08:14 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  I worship him for one SINGULAR reason..
I was born a Christian..
My family was Christian

As for why I bother.. even when I could just do away with such beliefs.. I can't face the social pressure of leaving and I am not so unhappy that I feel compelled to leave.

So you have no good reason to believe any of it is actually true and are too insecure to have any integrity.

Noted

"too insecure to have any integrity".

What am I supposed to do? Throw it all away??
It keeps me happy, I'll keep on holding on to my beliefs

Oh no. He's here - God
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14-01-2017, 09:25 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:22 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:12 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If you are going to imagine a god you might as well imagine a competent one


So you have no good reason to believe any of it is actually true and are too insecure to have any integrity.

Noted

"too insecure to have any integrity".

What am I supposed to do? Throw it all away??
It keeps me happy, I'll keep on holding on to my beliefs

Please excuse my jumping in without reading the thread proper, but I ask you permit me one question:

How does it keep you happy? Explain it to me.

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14-01-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:22 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "too insecure to have any integrity".

What am I supposed to do? Throw it all away??
It keeps me happy, I'll keep on holding on to my beliefs

What do you expect us to do?

YOU came here.
YOU expressed your beliefs.

I do not want to hold beliefs that are false.
You have expressed your beliefs and the reasons that you hold them.
I do not accept that your beliefs are true, nor are your reasons valid.
If you profess such beliefs and reasons here, people will point out the flaws.

What you do with your life is entirely your business.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-01-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:22 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:12 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If you are going to imagine a god you might as well imagine a competent one


So you have no good reason to believe any of it is actually true and are too insecure to have any integrity.

Noted

"too insecure to have any integrity".

What am I supposed to do? Throw it all away??
It keeps me happy, I'll keep on holding on to my beliefs

Gotta call BS on this, at some level, you already understand it's a bunch of hooey, now all you're doing is going through the motions and pretending it's real.

But hey, even mother Teresa did that:

"Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear," she wrote the Rev. Michael van der Peet in September 1979.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-01-2017, 09:46 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:22 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "too insecure to have any integrity".

What am I supposed to do? Throw it all away??
It keeps me happy, I'll keep on holding on to my beliefs

What do you expect us to do?

YOU came here.
YOU expressed your beliefs.

I do not want to hold beliefs that are false.
You have expressed your beliefs and the reasons that you hold them.
I do not accept that your beliefs are true, nor are your reasons valid.
If you profess such beliefs and reasons here, people will point out the flaws.

What you do with your life is entirely your business.

I know that and that's why I came here.

I apologise for being a dickhead.. Back to it

Oh no. He's here - God
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